A living history of Hedonism II: The Winds of Change

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The winds of change blew through the expansive property of Hedonism II just a few years ago. In the face of potential financial ruin, a group of dedicated customers and entrepreneurs led by Jon Gross of Unwind Travel came together to save the place many people call “home.” Hear the story of how it happened from the guy himself, and a little more about what makes this place so special.

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A Living History of Hedonism II Pt 2 – The Winds of Change w…

Thu, 9/2 10:07AM • 1:03:04


people, hito, resort, harry, fluffs, hedonism, swinger, week, john, casual, money, women, life, group, lifestyle, couple, jamaica, travel, year, trip


Mickey Gordon, Jon Gross – Fluffernutters, Mallory Gordon


Mallory Gordon  00:10

Welcome to casual swinger. If you’re under 18, the following podcast is not appropriate for you. The subjects and language are for mature audiences only. If you’re not mature in nature, just make sure you’re old enough to vote. We don’t take ourselves seriously ever. No guarantees given regarding the accuracy of any opinions or statements made on this podcast or website or a blog. It’s all in fun, folks. This isn’t Dr. Phil. Now consider yourself the listener properly advised.


Mickey Gordon  00:46

Welcome back everybody to casual swinger. My name is Mickey and Mallory and welcome back for part two of a three part series or living history of hedonism to this is a with the winds of change.


Mallory Gordon  01:01

of change. I feel like I should sing the winds of change. I know you just said it like like, like an Emily Bronte novel like title or I need Morgan Freeman. Where’s Morgan Freeman? We need him? Morgan Freeman. I think his voice makes everything. He’s literally the narrator of my life. Is he? Yes. In my head. Yeah,


Mickey Gordon  01:21

I just feel like he would get upset every time he had to narrate me masturbating.


Mallory Gordon  01:26

Yeah, yeah,


Mickey Gordon  01:27

I’m gonna short narration I mean, it’s always a race. It’s never a it’s like a sprint. Not a marathon.


Mallory Gordon  01:32

I would enjoy listening to that though.


Mickey Gordon  01:34

I think the thing that takes the longest when you masturbate is looking for good porn. You’re like, you start to whack off and then you’re like, Oh, no, not it. Oh, no, not it. Oh,


Mallory Gordon  01:42

something like unexpected happens. And you’re like, Oh, shit. Oh, I didn’t know what they were gonna use the cups. Yeah. Anyway, so no segment this week. Again, as we go into this living history Part Two winds of change. And this one features a gentleman that is widely credited with saving the resort.


Mickey Gordon  02:05

Yeah, this is Oh, so I let this this episode is a big deal. This episode’s a big deal. because number one, the winds of change. We’re talking about what happened at the resort when things went south. And they say really bad. The resort wasn’t happy people weren’t getting paid falling apart and about like circa 2001, things were not good. Things were definitely not good. There was a group that had established itself above and above and beyond all others, as the group to go with and we’re talking about a group called the fluffer. nutters fluffin otters are run by a guy named john gross. They were founded by he and his wife, Janet. And Matter of fact, we went on our honeymoon trip with them. That is true. So and which is where we met Jim and Rachel Cruz and a lot of things changed for us. So it’s, we got a lot of love for the fluffs. We really do. And, you know, interestingly enough, in the last episode that we recorded this week with Howard was he talked about john, he talked about the extras that they provide, and what are we talking about? You know, a big difference between Hito and desire, is desire is what it is right? There is the resort itself is a high end hotel that offers an experience for people and the service is beyond beyond question, right? beyond reproach. But when we talk about Hito, the experiences the people, people talk about the people all the time, very much. So the food’s Great. All right, and the resort experience itself, the hotel rooms are not remotely as nice as desire from what I’m told, no, but they’re not nearly as bad as what they use nearly as bad as they used to be. And that’s the point of this episode. So back in the day, when everything went south, there was a guy who said, this place means so much to the people, that means so much to me, we can’t let this thing fail. We can’t let this thing go. And you know what, he also saw business opportunity. He saw a business opportunity, he saw an opportunity to serve his customers and to serve as friends. And what they did is they bought the resort. So this is brought


Mallory Gordon  04:07

some someone’s


Mickey Gordon  04:09

neighbor, maybe someone’s Yeah, he brought the ownership group together. Yeah, that ended up buying Hito from SuperClubs and then invested millions 10s of millions of dollars into this resort. And every time we go back, we’re in


Mallory Gordon  04:24

all of something new. It’s something new. It’s like a revolution it is and the spirit of the resort is only enhanced by these things.


Mickey Gordon  04:36

Yeah. And so we’re releasing two episodes back to back. This is a Wednesday and a Thursday release. We’ve never done this before. And, you know, I think it’s important to cover this history for you guys. I think it’s important to talk about all the things that are different and we’re going to talk in the third piece and the final piece of this living history of Hito. That final piece will be with Harry Lang. We will talk about some of the changes that he’s made. Because you know, he, you know, used to have sex police, or they give you I’ll give you a hard time forgetting that on. He used to have worse food worse rooms worse everything and these guys came together and changed all that they also added things to make it a little more sex forward.


Mallory Gordon  05:17

Yeah. And let’s let’s check that though because I mean, it’s, it sounds like we’re putting down the resort of what it used to be. But it’s another testament to the spirit and the people, because we kept going back, they kept going back year after year, no matter how much it deteriorated because of the relationship, the people, the staff, the environment. Yeah,


Mickey Gordon  05:36

I mean, you know, my first trip to Hito was in 2001. And it was when things were starting to take a pitch downward. And I still loved it, I loved everything about it, everything about it just felt so natural to me. And it helped me figure out who I was and what I wanted to be and how I wanted to live my life and, and I credit, you know, Hito with that, and I credit john gross with helping it stay helping it stay that way. And he found Harry Lang, who’s, you know, the principal owner of hedonism to today. And we thank him for that, you know, as guests and as repeat offenders for Hito. So, you know it when we talk about travel agents, and there’s a lot of really, really great travel agents out there, right. I mean, you’ve got castaways who’s one of the biggest you’ve got topless travel who employer friends mark and Carly to go out and host for them. You’ve got the dirty pervs with Jason and Heather who we love. And then of course, our hometown Rachel’s rascals, who we love these travel agents, all kinda came after. Yeah, john gross. Y’all came after the fluffs. And when I say after, they might have been there first, but the fluffs change the way it was done.


Mallory Gordon  06:40

Correct. They sent the mold


Mickey Gordon  06:43

they said they paid and by that I mean we’re talking you know, heat Oh, by the way, when you go to heat Oh, if you’ve never been to Hito you haven’t heard us talk about it before you get a lot of stuff. Included watersports are included all your food, all your drinks. It’s an all inclusive resort. Yes. But in the entertainment staff does a great job. But that doesn’t mean that you can’t go above and beyond and some of these travel agents do amazing things. They throw parties like the fluffernutter is cocktail party. That’s the first time anybody ever did anything like that. That was their idea. Yeah, you know, they’re I mean, it’s overdone at this point. But when you’ve been doing it for 20 some odd years things get over done. People


Mallory Gordon  07:19

still get very excited about it because it’s the kickoff to the week.


Mickey Gordon  07:23

No, I’m talking about the carwash. That’s what the carwash the cocktail party is not over done because it’s a kickoff. It’s it’s an opportunity to meet each other. But you know, people do neat spins on it. Like the pervs do speed dating for life. stylers Don’t worry, they do. So there’s a lot of neat ways that these things get done. But it all started with the fluffs and all started with john. So we’re going to give this man the credit he’s do. We’re going to give him some time to talk to you guys and tell you a little bit about the fluffs. And he’s going to tell you how they bought Hito. And some of those stories, which I think this is a super cool story that nobody’s told, I have


Mallory Gordon  07:57

to agree. And again, another great conversation that I very much enjoyed being a part of.


Mickey Gordon  08:03

Yeah, it was really neat, you know, and if you ever get a chance to walk up and talk to john, he’ll talk to anybody do it, do it, go and talk to the guy. You know, I don’t blame him. If I if my story was this cool. I would love to talk about myself. And he does a great job of it. He tells a complete story. He’s he still manages to weave it there. Yeah, so brutally honest. Yeah, really, really fun interview to do. And we want to thank john for joining us on casual swinger. We think this was super cool. And then, you know, part three, which comes next week? Well, actually, yeah, next week will be Harry Lang. So that’s kind of exciting.


Mallory Gordon  08:41

I’m very excited to sit down with Harry.


Mickey Gordon  08:44

Yeah, so super neat. But hey, that’s kind of it. We’re just gonna let you guys dig right into this interview. We want to keep this short and sweet this time. This is the story of john gross and in how they saved Hito. And Mallory, feel free to tell folks how they can find us.


Mallory Gordon  09:00

Awesome. Well, we’ll be down in Jamaica, so definitely look for us on Twitter. We’re playing what’s under my hat, so feel free to participate, play along and win some cool prizes. You can find us as casual swinger not only on Twitter, but Instagram, Facebook, SLS, STC and Cassidy. Send us your feedback and questions. Even if you just want to check in and see how our weeks go and you can find this podcast at casual swinger.com send us a message send us a note. And as always casual swinger.com awesome.


Mickey Gordon  09:29

This is your interview with john gross from the fluffer nutters everybody you’ve been listening to casual swinger. Welcome back everybody to casual swinger. I’m Mickey. I’m


Mallory Gordon  09:46



Mickey Gordon  09:46

And we have our special guest here somebody that we think you guys are gonna love hearing from one Mr. JOHN gross from unwind travel. JOHN, how are you today?


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  09:58

I’m good Nikki Mallory. Thank you for having me on casual swinger and taking the time out of the beautiful weather and the pool and hot tub and heat. Oh, yeah, it’s it. This doesn’t suck. We’re not gonna lie.


Mallory Gordon  10:11

No, but we greatly appreciate you taking the time to join us today


Mickey Gordon  10:15

taking out time twice, right, because we did this interview once before with john back in so beautiful was a phenomenal interview that taught a beautiful story. And I had a server snafu and lost his interview, and he graciously and so professionally opted to do this interview with us again, it’s


Mallory Gordon  10:31

a testament to the man.


Mickey Gordon  10:32

Yeah, so we really can’t thank this man enough, john. You know, it’s funny, you mentioned you know, we’re down here at Hito. Right now, and, and we’re talking about you we saw Howard Heron seeing yesterday who this episode is, this is the second part of a three part series on a living history of hedonism, too. And we saw Howard and he mentioned you said, you just left and we missed you. We saw cherylin she’s like you just miss john. We saw Harry Hey, you just miss john. You’re a celebrity around here, man.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  11:01

Yeah, it was time. It was time for me to cut to come back to this gorgeous weather in Manchester, New Hampshire, where it’s snowing and ice and cold.


Mickey Gordon  11:10

Does it ever get old coming back here? Have you been to you know?


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  11:15

Oh, my God, you know, I’ve tried to figure that out. I know, not as much as Howard. I mean, Howard started way back when it was the real beat. So he’s probably in the 70s. I came once in 85. We see though, and once, maybe seven. And then in the 90s. I was there. The first half of it is like once a year, and I started coming twice. You know, it’s funny, came once a year and realized that a year is just too long. So twice a year made things pretty good. Because every six months, you come home from a trip you’re ready to go, you know you already think about the next one. And then around the end of the century, I started doing groups they were called Tito homestyle with and then became fluffy matters. And of course prefers now does, I think eight trips a year. And so far, I haven’t missed one. When I was CEO, you know, I was when I was CEO, I was different meetings at least once a month. On top of the trips. I think there was probably two or three years where I was there like 20 times and 20 something times.


Mallory Gordon  12:19

Exactly. You know, I can’t go to the grocery store and walk past the marshmallow fluff and not think of you guys. That’s true.


Mickey Gordon  12:27

And the thing that I think about how hard it is to get that shit off. It is like you have to lick for our let’s


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  12:33

just Well, yeah, it’s pretty water soluble. Think about it though. I used to use a chocolate that came with a brush. It’s called babies traveling from like West Germany or something. And it just didn’t make beautiful pictures when you know, someone picks their head around and they’ve been like looking. It looks like the covered in shit. Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? For some girls side of her mouth is kind of kind of sexy, actually.


Mickey Gordon  13:02

Yeah, I’m not gonna lie. Yeah, we’ve got a lot to cover here. But I really want to get a picture of the man. So we talked a little bit before you came on, about what we feel really happened here. And in you know, we’ll reiterate that that we feel like there’s one person that deserves a lot of credit for saving Hito saving home, that this place wouldn’t be here today. If somebody hadn’t had the entrepreneurial balls to step up and put a group together to save this place from what was coming. So we want to talk about that a little bit and the


Mallory Gordon  13:33

creative foresight


Mickey Gordon  13:34

right. Yeah, cuz it did take creativity. It took you know, you had to see the potential for what this place could be 90 acres of perversion was falling apart. SuperClubs had wrung all the money.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  13:47

You’re saying, Yeah, that’s true. Well, you know, you know, in the year 2000, to 2010 1112, I had built a large following. That, you know, couldn’t couldn’t go anywhere else. Really. I mean, the resort in Mexico, he’ll have 109 rooms and, and if he ever went out of business, I don’t know what I would have done. I mean, I was throwing some parties to the Playboy Mansion. And, you know, we have and so forth, but, but most of it was here, where he don’t people. So if he became a family resort, my life as I knew it would have been over and, and, you know, I ran a computer company and was involved in a whole bunch of things. But the best time of my life, every year was going down to heroes. You know, you’re it’s known if you haven’t been if your listeners you haven’t been, you really no matter how much we put it in words, until you actually experience it. You just have no idea how it changes your life. It changes your DNA, I think you can go to heat a once and never go back. But if you go twice it Yeah, it’s as bad as any.


Mickey Gordon  14:53

It really does. And I want to dig in a little bit. So I’ve got some questions for you and and i think you know, it Because we thought about this a lot, we you know, we met you on a fluff trip. We did a honeymoon four years ago. today. We came on our honeymoon with you.


Mallory Gordon  15:09

Wow, this is our friend aversary.


Mickey Gordon  15:11

This is our friend aversary with you, john. So, epic friend grocery. That’s right happy friend aversary to user. But you know, when I first met you, we were in the hot tub and you were telling me about growling computer? And then I got to know you better and we learned about unwind travel and the fluffer nutters and then you became hedonism. CEO. So Tell, tell our listeners, what are you? Are you a geek? Are you a travel agent? Are you a CEO? Are you a swinger? How do you describe yourself? If somebody says who you Who are you?


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  15:42

I Well, I don’t think I define as any one thing. I think all of those things are probably right. I’m a guy who likes to have a good time. And I’m a guy who likes to live life to its fullest. There’s a lot of people who sacrifice living life for the future. And some people get there some people don’t. I don’t have the good fortune of Harry’s of having Harry’s kind of money. So I have to live life as I can’t I think most of us do. I think anybody goes to keto for a week, you know, what kind of person are they, they have this and that they can be anybody but there’s somebody who, who’s looking to have a good time to get an uninhibited mind wants to experiment wants to just have the fantasy kind of things, you know, I made some money, you know, by pure luck in the 90s with the my computer company. And when you have a little bit of money, and you have an amazing wife, and you have two good kids, you know, some of the other fantasy things are like kid I also get those I know hearing, Ito, you know, for those who can’t see me, he’s on the radio now. But I’m a short guy who looks a little bit like Danny DeVito. When I go when I go on a singles bar, you know, most women are looking over my head, and everybody else around me. And Hito I could be myself and you know, apply my personality and some of my skills and and as you do pretty well. It’s interesting, women are going to heat over tell me that they never feel as beautiful as when they heat up. The men are so appreciative of all the women that are there, especially the significant others or the spouses of that woman, a lot of couples go because it reignites their marriage, it gives them another sense of, of, of weak connection. There’s a lot of sexuality and sensuality. But a lot of it just reflects back on a couple of themselves in a lot of people go and they watch or they are around it, and it stimulates them. And they go back and they have tremendous sex that they might not have had for years. Because the kid they’re worried about fitting in before the kids you know, knocking on the door and whatever it is you want has to be somewhere in there to touch, whatever it is, you’re in a white place a week with a limited alcohol. Only adults know children crying, everybody’s got an open mind. You may not want to fuck everybody was there. But every but you sorta have intercourse means conversation, you know, then you definitely have intercourse with a lot of people.


Mallory Gordon  18:14

I love that analogy. And I don’t apologize. But I go home every time after a trip to Hito and feel so good about myself. It’s a very positive environment to be in, especially as a female, because you do get that constant, you know, affirmation, you have that opportunity to connect with these significant other that you’re there with. And there’s no bullshit involved. There’s no work, there’s no kids, there’s no responsibilities that you’re tied to. And it’s just you don’t really know until you go and we constantly encourage people to you know, at least try it if you’ve never been a least try because, you know, we’ve taken away so many positive experiences.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  18:57

It’s definitely coffee. Yeah, true. Yeah, definitely. Women especially. And that that goes a long, long way. It’s funny because men think everybody thinks you have to go there. It’s a big orgy and this and that. It really is. I mean, it could be if you want to be a yes, but that’s not the prevailing pavilions of reason people go, they go for, I’m sure. Have Howard Howe and Franklin that’s it. Yeah. So I mean, let me just give you like, flustered if you’d asked me, I never answered it. You know, we were laying around the, the cool tub, the real row one by the caves. And we needed a name for our group. And we and you know, we were trying to do something that didn’t say swinger on it because we didn’t want like swinger on our hat. And we didn’t want like, you know, lifestyle on our shirt. Because we want people to be able to wear our logo and wear our stuff and those who will know and those who don’t So fluffernutter kind of sounds like, sounds like a fluffer, which for those who don’t know, is a girl who gets a guy hard before, you know, porn star, before he goes on scene have girls who are fluffers? So everybody who thinks of fluff, no, it’s got to be something pornographic. But for those who don’t know, that means you probably lost some New England, marshmallow fluff. And I don’t mean marshmallow cream, but marshmallow fluff, which is, you know, a mock owned by the jerky company. Those there were two guys in the depression that sold Marshall foster would adore. And that became a couple’s even there’s even a fluff event every year in September and some of the mass, and we wanted a name that was sexy, we love much more fluff. I mean, their shields go up every time we do a trip, and they play all kinds of credit for their new advertising plan, or whatever it is. But truth is, it’s just, it’s my guys, you know, buying the fluff to bring to the heater. You know, you know, for under $1, you can, you can have a jar of fun. And so that’s why we chose fluffernutter, it looks good. The logo is just a couple with palm trees and so Fernando’s on it. So that’s why Florida does exist, we actually


Mickey Gordon  21:12

have some swag with their names on it with the fluff noters log.


Mallory Gordon  21:15

Absolutely we do. And it’s it’s a the namesake even speaks volumes, especially in this environment. And you just talked about the history of the name and of itself. But let’s talk about the group like how it actually came to be. I mean, you were coming here, you said you started in the 80s. And in the 90s, that came to fruition like, how has that changed? Now?


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  21:36

Well, what’s interesting about us is, a lot of the other groups are traveling just that book here, though. They’re just traveling. So that’s what they do. If you want to go on a cruise, the majority cruise, if you want to go you know, to Europe, the majority Europe, some some do adult stuff, but they do all kinds of stuff. They don’t care. They don’t care whether Tito or someplace else. We will never that way we never were a travel agency, I was a computer guy and I was a plumbing salesman before that the AC only came into being because I needed an agency to have the bonding and to have the itin number and the stuff you need to really sell travel and to have legally and ethically. So the you know, we are we never advertised, you don’t see our you know, we don’t pop up. Some of the guys are really good. Somebody who’s really good at, you know, God forbid you go to any adult site, their ad for bookings gonna follow you everywhere. I’m a computer guy couldn’t do that. But I’ve chosen purposely to let people bring people in. So most of I would say 90% of our membership is because they were referred to by somebody else. We have one couple that comes, they tell five of their friends, their five friends come that one couple might leave three, four years later, but those are the five, spawn 25 and so forth. And I think as far as total log ons, and you know, on the fluff another site, I think we’re at 30,000 people that are that are technically members, but we really only truly have probably four or 5000 that are active members. That’s still quite a few. Yeah, that’s


Mickey Gordon  23:11

Yeah, that’s quite a few people. I mean, that’s, I mean, when you got 4000 people and you know, you think about it, this room is there, this resort has 288 rooms, you can fill 288 rooms, you find you guys have done quite a few takeovers in the history of not only Hito but the history of the flops right.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  23:29

Yeah, the 280 rooms we were the we were it was us in one of the groups that really could fill the place back in the you know, the mid days. What happened was the resort got to the point where SuperClubs was just trying to cash in the in the case of family really is nowhere on the island anymore. They own a property in the Bahamas, and at one point they just shut off the money all went to Florida and everything had to be requested so it wasn’t like the resort could keep the profits that they would generate. And they would generating profits. In fact, it’s the first resort. The profits from hedonism is what black man Lido and all the other, you know, all the other hotels and join he did a nice job designing the resort. He’s proud of a lot of things. And the resort was in such such bad shape that I swear to God, Kevin will tell you that towards the end. There was one October one week where he had to go into casino machines to take the coins out to go buy bread or yeast. I mean, that was what was running out of problems. No, I’m not getting the result was run out of room. And there was a point where we brought our own alcohol and we had Jeffrey the rest of the manager actually buy alcohol for us. So we had flavored blockers. We put our label on it. So everyone knew that the Maker’s Mark came from us. And even when they had that stuff, it was one bottle and it was gone. And then I heard in 2012 that basically the bank was going to control the the, the mortgage and they had somebody who I owned a middle class or West type, family resort and component Antonio. And they were setting up this guy to buy the property. Oh, that


Mallory Gordon  25:11

must have been to definitely it was okay.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  25:15

Well, I was like I was, you know, I was very conservative people who work there, he, you know, when you go to Hito, it’s like no other hotel, you will fall in love with somebody, some one of the staff, everybody has their favorite bar, you every time, it’s somebody new every time when you’re awake. It’s, they’re all saying, you know, the Jamaicans just had it. It’s the greatest I went for, I mean, I travel a lot. I’ve been through the whole Caribbean, Mexico and so forth. The Jamaicans really know how to connect, especially in a place like Quito, they get it instead, what we want, and they truly become, you know, interested in you. And they become when you go back, you, you know, I know that most of the families, but people, I was worried about everybody besides my group. And so it was time to put a group together. And I had maybe three or four people that had the money, but only a couple that was serious. And one guy was Brazilian guy, multi billionaire kind of guy. And then there’s Harry. And Harry, was the number two guy or so fidelity was certainly in the top tier, he ran the largest fund in the world, the Magellan fund in the 80s, and 90s. And Harry had parted with me for years. Of course, we all keep that kind of stuff, quiet those days. Now, it’s so out there, I don’t mind mentioned his name. But, you know, Harry helped. I remember once he wrote a check from his, you know, his charity fund that he had trust fund or whatever it was for charities. And he wrote a check once at a playboy party for I think, 70 $500 or $8,000, the year before he had lost the auction to paint a playboy model, and he was determined not to lose it that year. So he’s the guy probably the only liberal, probably the only liberal that ever worked for the company that were top tier person and carries a genuinely nice guy who cares about people. He is so unusual for guy if this kind of money. Yeah, he he takes the bus. You know, I used I flew in and he was like, What are you fighting for the bus? And I’m like, well, Harry, I went before I became part of the ownership group. And I wasn’t changing he is. He’s truly what he is. He’s truly a really good guy. And after great, he was the perfect one. He was a perfect guy to bring into the deal. We had a margarita in the pool one day, and he said, You know, I think I could buy this place. I’m going to retire soon. And he said, What do you want? And I said, What is What do you mean? What do you want? Well, I mean, you want a flat amount of money, you want to set a percentage, he says what percentage? You’re like, imagine him going to come up with your own number, like what percentage? I didn’t know what to say. That’d be terrible. Though, again, besides that, I’ve just drilled them and he’s obviously open to be honest with you. And and, and then I said, I’d like to be the CEO, or the CEO for a few years. And that might be kind of fun, you know. So I went to my lawyers and started to go she actually went to Muna, who’s the isas daughter, really cool girl. And I said to her, look, you’re going to help me out here because you know how much I love Hito. I mean, I had won a bunch of awards for being the number one, you know, guy here and so on. And the people knew me, they knew how much I cared. We had started a scholarship fund. And we had paid for the first year of high school for all the children and grandchildren, we had helped the guy, we saved the guy’s life, life saving operation we had done, we had done a ton of stuff as a group. And I said the moolah, similar to get me in to talk to your father. And what I’ll do is we’ll bring this resort back to what it was in its glory days. And he’ll be proud of it. And I’ll tell you what, we’ll leave him with a piece of the resort we’ll leave you with 10% of the resort or something as part of the deal. So you still have your fingers, and it’s some degree, at least, you know, the the valuation as it goes up. And she did and I tried to get a meeting with the Vice President of bank who was a female, which in Jamaica is you mentioned, tough. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And she is she would not even hear me. I’m telling you, I couldn’t you wouldn’t return my calls. And then I got Harry and boy. And once they saw Harry Lang, and they realized that he’s probably worth more than the Bank of Jamaica. All of a sudden, the doors open. We have a meaning, you know, I’m invisible. And all all the bankers coming into the car, literally, they must have timed it. Like one guy comes in. Thank you very much. 10 minutes later, the guy comes in. They all want to do some selves. And luckily we have Howard because he’s, he’s, he’s a good guy. He was again, he was concerned about how the how the employee is going to get treated. And he wanted to change the way employees retrained. He did some really cool stuff. But I will say this, as the deal was coming to a to a resource to close the first time. And Harry actually walked out of the deal that day. He said his face. I think it’s So what are some of his family had had talked him out of a there wasn’t a good investment. And what I had promised areas I said, Harry, you won’t lose money on this investment, but you probably won’t make money. If you’re doing this to make money you can put your money elsewhere because it’s really probably not a great investment. So definitely highly risky. I said, but it will change your life. You can ensure it has. You’ll be fucking girls. I mean, he’s fucked more girls, since I’m telling you a better 1000 times more than this combined like, oh, maybe sport at this point?


Mallory Gordon  30:38

Yeah. Olympic is an understatement. Like he is literally keto. Like a Mr. Yeah, he has we saw


Mickey Gordon  30:46

him last night. He’s like, I think there’s four girls waiting in my room for me. And that sounds misogynistic, but it’s not because they love him and he loves him back. He’s a wonderful person and they’re having fun and it’s consensual. And it’s, it’s, it’s it’s amazing. He’s


Mallory Gordon  30:58

very much a giver, like in a lot of aspects. He does care about people, he does it get joy out of seeing other people happy. And in his own right. He enjoys being happy. And happy. Yeah, you can’t blame him for it. I don’t think


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  31:13

and and the funny thing is, I said them, Look, you’re buying a look how old you are. He was 16 at the time, I said, you know, you’ve been you know, when you worked with fidelity they watch everything. They know everything. They did his taxes, farm everything. You know, we had money, you really couldn’t do much with it. Now he can live the rest of his life. You know, I said that’s what you’re buying. He’s got plenty of money What if you break even it was a little bit of money on this thing. What’s you know, it’s not going to change the way you live. But But being the owner veto. And, and of course, eventually he agreed and he he walked out and I had a it was a week. It was like the most somber week it was amazing. Like, I was on my way to the closing and I got a call from Kevin, who’s the other partner I think he’s now considered an equity partner. I think that changed the way things are but he’s you know, he said john the games or Harry’s in the office trying to get his million dollar deposit back or whatever it was. Just come come to the hotel. And I went there and it was really so somber. We went to the bait bank that day, it was so somber, it was like it was like a funeral. And then like two weeks later, after we after we crunched the numbers and and got Harry to agree to come back. And we did we made we barely made the closing but we made it the difference was like it was so funny. It was funny to have a split screen and see both rooms at the same at the same time. So it turned out to be a good time and you know, I will say this I went through a hard time I was CEO for like three years. I went through a hard time we resort went through some hard times they they lost a very large lawsuit had a shutdown the US presence and I found out that I wasn’t that happy being CEO. I mean it was changed the way I went I like being the head of fluffing I was having a good time and causing trouble and yeah, good trouble.


Mallory Gordon  32:59

Absolutely. You did a total 180 on that like because all that resigned ality in the investment. I got out of it. Yeah,


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  33:09

I hadn’t been. And you know, having Harry was nice enough to pay me quite a bit more not not a small amount, but quite a bit more than what my my shares were actually worth at the time. So I have nothing good to say about them. But But I will say this, the those in the know, know that. It was really my efforts stick bait that set the resort in the direction that it’s going and now you know, Harry’s done an amazing job. He’s put a lot of money into it. He hasn’t taken any money out. Not that he has to but he’s invested all the profits so that people have we have benefited when you go to Hito you pay the new rate which is a little bit higher. Now. You’re getting back every penny because he’s you know, there’s no resort you’re going to go to not where you go to the bar at the pool. And you can get thrown and Maker’s Mark and sir rock and Greg boobs. That stuff isn’t the pool. Yeah, it is.


Mickey Gordon  34:05

And keep in Keep in mind, it’s the the watersports are included. Your food is included. I mean, you can take out a kayak catamaran, you can go on snorkeling. If it’s included.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  34:16

There’s no tipping. No tipping required or expected because, you know let’s face if you naked wherever you’re going to pull the tip out of no one’s gonna really want to take you from there.


Mickey Gordon  34:28

Right so so john, you know, Mallory and I are of the opinion and we’ll say this openly we’ve said it before I’ll say it one more time that if not for john gross hedonism to doesn’t exist today. You’ve talked about your friend Harry, you’ve talked about being in business with


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  34:46

Go ahead. Yeah, that’s true. I mean, it’s just that that is capsule II what I’m sent to it because they were selling it to a non lifestyle entity,


Mallory Gordon  34:56

who was really doing apples or peaches. Yeah.


Mickey Gordon  34:59

So So from from obviously casual swinger, and from all of our listeners and everybody that loves Hito, thank you, number one. But I want to know, because we talk a lot about in, in our show and in the lifestyle, and because you’re a lifestyle, or you’re a semi, you are one. I mean, as a matter of fact, I think there’s an article written about you called the king of swing, there was one time we came here and saw you. And they were filming a pilot for a TV show called The King of swing. It was about you. Yeah, you’re well, you then you’re ranking it. Was that right? So


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  35:33

it was a reality show that they were going to shoot, they never got around to selling that one guy, somebody who went investor in it’s kind of stole it, tried to sell it on their own, and they got shut down. And so it went haywire. But yeah, we did shoot a pilot with actually a Giuliana and had Christine with me and who else? Yeah,


Mickey Gordon  35:48

yeah, you had a bunch of hot girls with you? It didn’t. So yeah. But, you know, tell me, you know, one of the big themes we talk about, we just did a show recently on this on fear, uncertainty and doubt. Fudd. You and I come across Fudd in our lines of business all the time, whether it’s technology, whether it’s lifestyle, whether it’s travel, how did fear uncertainty and doubt play a part in the acquisition, the organization to this group? How did you overcome it? What What was the driving factor that made you say, I don’t care that I’m afraid I don’t care. This could cost me my personal life, my professional life, my economic success? What was the thing that said, I’m going to do this no matter what, how did you overcome fear, uncertainty and doubt? And how do you do it on a day to day basis in the lifestyle? Right? You said, You’re a short guy that vaguely resembles Danny DeVito. Yet here you are throwing the party, and you got a beautiful girl waiting on you at home. So what’s the secret?


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  36:44

Yeah, it’s, I mean, I shake my head, sometimes I can’t believe I have had the success that I’ve had. I have to believe, first of all, anything you do in life, you really, if you’re passionate about it, if it’s something that really is part of who you are, you’re probably going to be successful because you’re going to be happy every day going to work. So I’ve never I mean, I didn’t plan on being in the computer business, really, I was a salesman, I wanted to be a TV producer. I’m a new house grad, I went to New I went to Syracuse University for broadcast journalism and so forth. And I just kind of fell into every one of the things I did, I didn’t plan on turning fluffiness into a business. It was a hobby. Most of the hobbies I’ve had that I’ve been passionate about, I found a way to make some money with it and next thing you know, it’s a business and I try not to let it get to own me. I think every day I have here is every day I’m dealing with you know, there’s a lot of overhead in this business. There’s a lot of competition is business like everybody else probably in every business, but I believe in myself I figure I’m also pretty easygoing so when I want to have a failure or things don’t go my way I just kind of you know I kind of let it go I don’t let it eat me alive. I just keep going I my goal when I wake up in the morning is to smile and have a good time and you know try to help some people I spend a lot of time helping other people and that’s probably takes away from some of my focus it’s you know, you can’t if you yourself you know I will say this about women if i if i may men a very visual if there’s a gorgeous looking woman boy she could have a lot of bad personal traits and so forth. And most guys unless they’re amazingly good looking guys are mainly sensible guys. They’ll overlook it if she shows interest because she’s amazing okay women don’t see it that way at all don’t get me wrong the guy is totally a hunk he’s well Hong Kong or whatever he’s probably going to get fucked like crazy techno for example, but we just talked to me yesterday probably getting to blow jobs right now at the ball. He’s like he’s a pro at it. You know he’s a single guys bro. And I think when it comes to women, women like to have a connection with men. And if you’re a guy who kind of understands women and really can connect a lot of guys you know really are selfish when it comes to sex. And when it comes to affection or comes from understanding or the other just don’t have a high IQ on reading. What a woman really wants. A lot of guys you know that are that are you know, maybe not, you know rock stars or movie stars. That understeer you see beautiful women with guys who is what are you doing with him? My guess is he probably knows how to touch your buttons and the right places at the right time. A man and he probably feels Waterford a lot of her needs, emotional needs or romantic needs and so forth. I have learned a lot. This business this lifestyle in my wife has taught me a lot I have confidence when it comes to intimacy and being alone with a woman because I I know the certain things I know how to do and that I do do that seem to be universally light. But I think most of them is just connecting. And knowing you know, what? when someone goes down on you, okay? It’s basically the same thing. But the thing is one guy is terrible, can’t find the spot doesn’t Zig recert zag when he should, just doesn’t follow our mind isn’t the understanding, which is, you know what? That was signals she’s given him. Another guy is unbelievable. And most people somewhere in between, but basically, it’s all the same action isn’t like the sudden is so tremendously different. There’s only maybe 100 different things you know you do or whatever it is. The question is when you do them in what order and how they done it, and how you fucking with someone’s mind. And mind fucking is let’s face it, isn’t it? I mean, that is the ultimate organ to stimulate. Yeah, so it is in the world,


Mallory Gordon  40:49

when you can, yeah, when you can get in somebody’s mind space. And, and lead with that. It’s a secret, Amy, it’s it’s the secret of sex in and of itself.


Mickey Gordon  41:00

JOHN, I gotta tell you, the last three and a half minutes of audio are probably the best three and a half minutes of audio we’ve ever had in casual swinger, because you covered a couple of things really quickly and succinctly. You talked about passion. You talked about intimacy, you talked about connecting. Right, and, and when, in the last thing, which is probably the most important thing in the universe is confidence. So those things when you can put all of them together, it’s not just the lifestyle you’re going to be successful at. It’s your life, you’re going to be successful at,


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  41:36

but well, you know, it’s, you know, I it’s funny, because I have my haters, and my haters and people usually who don’t really know me, they’ve heard some stories, and they’ve heard someone like me say, whatever, they haven’t really met me or hung with me or spent time with me or our, you know, allowed anything. The people who know me know that my, I only tried to do good to people, I only try I’m genuinely interested in all the people that, that travel with me and I get to know everybody, you know, probably not as good as I used to be at it. And the early days, I took every phone call and if so was new and never been I’d spent two hours with them talking about everything here life, my life, how the why they’re doing this, you know, and so that when I finally met them, I kind of understood where they were as a couple in her usually one or the other because usually one of them’s on a farm and I both and it allows me to create the right energy. See, the whole idea of events is and then we meet every group in the world is cropping my events, somebody has come up with original stuff. Most people have copied muscles to ymcas and all that stuff.


Mallory Gordon  42:42

Yeah, you just kind of set the cadence for that with like, as far as the events and the games and like the the overall structure of how a group is run. So that’s not surprising.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  42:52

Well, well, the thing is, Why come on my week, and come on any week, and usually my weeks my big weeks or my five goals and make more money. So really, you can save money? Certainly not broken. They just swallow weeks, I have my exact same price because I can’t no one’s gonna pay me that’s just we have we have enough inventory in the big ones. But I take all the extra money and I invest in in unbelievable entertainment.


Mallory Gordon  43:16

A lot of value adds.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  43:19

Yeah, Spike Blake just came in. He played one day before today’s thing and he was he was a middle the energy was unbelievable. And I thought to myself, people come to Hito Have a great week. But they don’t know what an unbelievable week is until they’ve had a night in the theater by that’s packed with naked women, you know, dancing on the piano and spike Blake playing. He sounds he’s one of the top three dueling piano players in the country out of Kansas City is pretty pretty friggin amazing. And you know, he comes over here with us we fly a rock band down from from Boston. To play on the on the poolside on in July, we have a big outside concert, we bring a sound in and you know, and you know, they have to have a party on Tuesday night a go party, they do a nice job with it. But they’re not going to spend you know, we spend a ton of money. We had a big black buy party with paint and video screens and we bring in a special DJ. And we take a portion of our profit because especially in the beginning, it was never a matter of making a profit, it was a matter of throwing a good party. So we took a good portion of our profits and invested it in, you know everything. You know, we send out a book. You know, a lot of it is a lot of it’s not just the events, it’s how they’re done. And when they’re done. There’s a real art to doing this properly. We just


Mallory Gordon  44:31

have to think about what timeframe right and what people’s level of comfort every building up to the crescendo. And yeah, that makes sense.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  44:38

Are we how I configure a trip to Hito is people say what day should we come in? Well, people who listen in the data come in a Saturday, because the truth is, imagine you’re on a brand new cruise ship that hasn’t, you know, 6000 people I don’t know how many people today on a cruise ship. But let’s say the cruise ships leaving on Saturday. Everybody’s walked around that first day who are to pick it out where they’re going to hang in a bar where they’re going to some bait so forth, so on. Now, if Wednesday I throw you on that ship, you’re in the office, everybody else is already chillin, you’re never going to catch up? Well, the evolution of a weekend Hito because this is not a normal week, this is where you’re gonna meet friends for life, where you’re really going to feel like you’re part of something, people have the guts to go there have a certain quality to them, and they it’s magnetic to each other. And what’s going to happen is you’re going to make friends and reflect what you need to meet them when they’re in the same mode you’re in. And what we do is we give newbies a different color, different color skirts, so that we know the newbies in our group, and we treat a little bit differently. Plus, we look to anybody. So if you’re a single meal, and you’re wearing a newbie hat, I don’t vote for you. We, you know, we have two rules and fluff in others. We don’t care how old you are. We don’t care how young you are. We don’t care if you drink champagne or beer. I don’t care if you’re a doctor or a garbage man. It’s funny. We have relationships between people who would never would have met, but they haven’t been keto, right, normally.


Mallory Gordon  46:00

today. Yes. Yeah.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  46:03

Yeah. So we have two rules. And we stick by that rule number one, no assholes. You can have an asshole, but you can’t be one if you’re a hassle. We can’t wear my hair. And by that we mean people who are miserable people, to staff because they think they’re American or they’re think they’re, you know, they think they’re God’s gift. And they think everybody should know, those people just aren’t part of my group. I mean, you got to be, you got to be kind of a nice person. And the second rule is no drama. If you’re a couple especially I know you’d have one listeners. And you know, it’s a casual lifestyle thing. So there’s probably people at different stages of the lifestyle. And you know, you dream about going keto. Everybody has a fantasy, we’re going to do this or don’t do that at all. Everyone has their limits. Okay, we’re going to do together, we’re not gonna do it separate. Okay. You’re not allowed to Kitson, whatever it is, everybody has their rules. And it’s so funny because the rules change over time. I call it a line in the sand. That line keeps moving.


Mallory Gordon  46:59

always does. Its white sand announcement, I


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  47:01

want to get into my first swing. And I never was a swinger, I was a 27 year old kid who couldn’t find a place that had nudity and I kind of like, Okay, and then for like, two or three years, I used to wonder about the swings, hey, we’d sit around Academy, not make fun of them, but we’d be like, intimidated by them, you know, and we swung the first time was like, totally by accident. Anyway, they you know, the thing is that you forget what I was saying now, sorry, guys.


Mallory Gordon  47:30

There’s so much. We’re talking about your group, your your, basically your, you know, life here in the last, you know, 25 years or so. And the history of Hito. There’s a lot of ground to cover. Yeah,


Mickey Gordon  47:42

I mean, we’re asking you to some of who you are in your entire life in 45 minutes. Good. Fucking luck. Yeah.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  47:50

It was, it was very important to make the chemistry right. And so we do certain parties that are made that a certain days of the week we do, what orientation, everything is, has a design to it, to move people along to a comfort level. But we also just like he was very respectful. With fluffiness, we’ve been very, very careful. For example, we throw a cocktail party, when we give away a lot of goods, which will cost a lot of money. We have an auction for like, you know, nice fashion, heavy duty crazy, amazingly good sex toys. And there are some people who who just can’t believe they’re there. I mean, they got naked for the first time and they’re there. And we don’t we respect them. And we certainly don’t expect a lot from them. But what makes it nice is people can do what they want. Because what it is, is the men get coupons. And the women are the only ones who can bid on the auction items. So the women has to give the coupons from the men. Now if you’re a new couple, it might be that girls really hot in my wife would love to be with her. So you call them over and you said, Look, can I take a picture of the two of you together? I’ll give you a coupon? Would you kiss my wife, I’ll give you a coupon. Then there’s the girl who just she loves giving blowjobs and he has her opportunity to use the friggin auction as an excuse to suck, you know, five guys, things are fucking hunks that have huge dicks. And, you know, you see it, you see the women like okay, thank you did you know we give me like three coupons. And then they they they use that as an excuse to get a pair of leather leather pants or whip or something at the auction? Basically,


Mickey Gordon  49:23

lot of strategy involved. I feel like I need coupons.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  49:28

Well, yeah. You know what, it allows people to do exactly what they want to do. And no more than that.


Mickey Gordon  49:34

It’s just unbelievable. So and then we are we’ve covered a lot of ground here. And this is I mean, you’re you’re as dynamic a personality as ever existed at Hito. or anywhere else for that matter. Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  49:52

you go ahead, by the way, you do a great job himself. You do a great job yourself. I’ve seen you emcee. Quite a few events and you’ve got Got it. You got it? Yeah. Hi, praise COVID Thank you, you’re a broadcaster. You’re a broadcaster. And you’re an old tech guy like me. So I guess it comes from the nerdiness. There’s something about, you know, we we adapt a certain way, and we use our personality. And I’ve seen, you know, your classrooms are great. And your emceeing is great. And if you ever did your own trip, you’d be fine.


Mickey Gordon  50:27

We’ll get back to you on that one. Yeah, but, you know, I, so you’re a CEO. And I have a question that I really want to know the answer to, from your perspective. You know, you’ve been a president, a couple of different companies now. And I think about this kind of stuff. So just, you know, I was a journalism minor. So it’s funny that, you know, we have that in common, but and I think about, you know, the world around us for a marketing perspective, a social media perspective, this ubiquitous pornography that we have around us, how does a place like hedonism stay relevant when what they’re selling extensively is available in the palm of your hand? How do this how do they stay relevant? And as their former CEO? What do you think they have to do? I know, they were talking about doing an expansion. How does this place stay here? You know, 38 years that Howard was coming here, and he was a flop, Frankie was one of the first 12. So how at 38 years from now, is he going to be here? What changes? And how do they do it?


Mallory Gordon  51:25

Wow. Yeah, that’s?


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  51:30

Well, yes, that’s a tough one. I’ve only had a couple to think about. But off top my head, what I would say is, is not pornography. And it’s not the sex you see on TV. It’s sexual, and it’s sensual. But if anything, it is needed more now, today, it is more relevant today than ever was, you know, there was you know, there was happiness, and it was love. And it was, our country is at each other’s throat. I mean, it is pretty bad. I mean, the amount of money and the amount of let’s call it the hate stuff, I don’t want to just say the amount of anxiety that you have about the existence. People on Facebook are different in each other because they have different political views, different races. I mean, there’s so much going on. It is an oasis is a place that people need more today than they’ve ever needed. You go there and you forget about the mainstream. You just spend a week being an adult. You know, there’s one day we go, like nine inflatable balls in the pool, and those balls golf, like two hours people hitting each other with them and throwing them, people look at that ball. And it’s like 50 year old men asking like 17 year old boys, and all day, whatever. You don’t do any big event that night, because everybody was asleep early.


Mallory Gordon  52:59

I agree with you though. It’s not it’s not you don’t come to expect pornography, it’s an a level of intimacy and that, you know, equal playing ground that everyone’s on. We’re naked. We’re here together. We’re here to connect. We’re here to have a great vacation. And, and available here. And it’s so unique compared to any other experiences. I’ve personally.


Mickey Gordon  53:20

Yeah. And you know, john, you and I are, we’re older than Mallory. So you remember Fantasy Island, to plane to play? Yeah. Back in the day Ricardo.


Mallory Gordon  53:33

Vacation by.


Mickey Gordon  53:35

So I think that’s what a mother of Aikido is. It’s a Fantasy Island where you can be anything you want to be, you can sing, you can tell jokes. You can be an emcee. If you’re a technology guy.


Mallory Gordon  53:46

Yeah, you can just watch from the background if that makes you happy.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  53:50

You know, it’s funny. It goes across age groups to very interesting people will come and say, you know what age of the group that you know what, that’s the first question usually is, what age are they we’re actually trying to find out and try to find out really how attractive the group is. And to me that’s very interesting because my my February group is probably a little bit older, totally old women like young swingers and one of those groups but is the most harmonious week and the people are for the most part, you know, I mean there’s some extremes but for the most part, people are pretty good looking. And it’s a good looking crap out but it’s a crowd that while everybody because everybody because that’s much more attractive because of the way they now I have weeks with gorgeous like the hottest crowd I have is in July it’s really hot. I mean, the crowds smokin hot, but there’s more drama that week. And it’s so it’s very interesting, but you know, the girl that travels with me is she’s only in our 20s she’s a young, early 20s and of course I was just complimenting


Mallory Gordon  54:56

I will say that your group is definitely all inclusive. We’ve run into slough’s and not only here in Jamaica, but in our everyday lives, like in our travels and in for work.


Mickey Gordon  55:05

And when we travel around the country doing stuff for council swing, we run into fluffs all over the place. Like we know you guys, you guys came with the fluffs four years ago. Yes, we did.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  55:14

Yeah. But the girl I’m with is very, very young. And the first time she went, it was totally out of her, you know, realm, I mean, at least to have life experience, but when you’re, I think she was maybe 20 or 21 at the time. And, you know, she’s gone about 20 times now. And she’s totally adapted to it, she loves the people. And every she has a lot of friends, people, she missed this last trip, because she has a family, a family emergency and, and people are asking about the staffs asking about it, she’s into things, which is there, and all people want to see her perform. And she’s not, you know, going crazy with a bunch of people. She’s just, she’s just she doesn’t have to be. But people love having her around. And so it’s kind of places for everybody. And then the end, the whole thing, I think my advice to people is, I would say, if you’re going to go to Hito, don’t go with any, like huge expectations that you’re going to, you know, you’re gonna be, you’re gonna have an unbelievably sexual time. And if you go with the right attitude, you probably will have sexual, great.


Mickey Gordon  56:16

This episode was important to us, it was important to us because we love Hito, we respect the hell out of what you’ve done.


Mallory Gordon  56:23

And we thank you for having the foresight and the guts to you know, come to the table and go, I want to solve this. And I think I know people who can help make that happen. And I want to be a part of that.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  56:36

I appreciate that. There was a lot of you know, in some ways, it’s cost me some things my personal life. But I know that there’s so many 1000s of people that are going to be happy and go to heat up for lunch. I mean, Harry’s done a really good job of making the place really beautiful. And he’s still investing, he’s still doing stuff. I might have done a little bit differently on a few things. But he, I think he’s done a great job, he’s cut, he’s got the right attitude. He’s definitely understands the, you know, people he understands Americans and students, Jamaicans you know, and, you know, thank you for you guys. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s guys like you that are promoting, you know, Lisa, give me the place where people can come to, that have an interest to have a curiosity. They want to get like, they want to truly understand it not kit, like the Howard Stern side of things, or whatever it is, you know, everybody kind of like glows. lifestyle is it makes it look very seedy. And there’s a lot of people who are lifestyles, and they don’t have


Mallory Gordon  57:34

Yeah, yeah. And anyone who doesn’t understand it kind of wants to put it in a box, right? Because then it’s controlled, and they can understand it inside those parameters. And what, what it is it’s very fluid. It’s whatever you make of it.


Mickey Gordon  57:45

It is wherever you are. Well, that’s, you know, in a nutshell, it’s fluid. It’s what you make of it. You can sit on the beach and talk to nobody and have a beautiful Caribbean vacation.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  57:53

I know what amazes me is the people who are very conservative in their life, and they are in their political views, their religious views. And you know,


Mickey Gordon  58:04

I got really stoned with the US District Court judge on your trip four years ago. So


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  58:10

I honestly, honestly, swear to god, I should say this, but this actually happened I saw a cancer. Give a rabbi Lapin one day I’m going to write a book. One day, I’m going to write a book, I swear to God, I am. I mean, I really have the outline for maybe the one that says I vote for a publisher. But the first chapter is going to be the worst, most embarrassing moments of my life in this lifestyle. And there are some stories that are going to people are going to laugh because you know, you don’t want to hear about my sybian stuff you don’t want to hear about you know my successes. I love these. I think what people want to really hear about is they want to put themselves in my shoes, when I’ve been in a situation has really really been fucked up.


Mallory Gordon  58:55

And when it really went wrong, yeah. Because you have to look, look back and laugh, art most popular episodes


Mickey Gordon  59:02

or fail episodes and we talk about things that went totally wrong,


Mallory Gordon  59:05

but I don’t want to change anything about the note at the same time. That’s why we are


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  59:10

always on time. And I will give you like five stories I guarantee your listeners will laugh their asses off on a rain check sir


Mickey Gordon  59:20

john, let’s let’s do a follow up to this because what I want to do is I want to do another show with you sometime and just talk fluffs because this was more about the saving of the resort and what the resort is all about and who you are all about as a hido CEO, but I want to give the fluster time you know, you have a lot of fluffs that are listeners of casual swinger, like Rico and Trixie who just messaged us the other day, right there’s and they didn’t break times. Yeah. Right. So we got to listen and chime in and say hi, and because you know what? They’re fantastic people like you said, and so I want to give the fluster do. So let’s do this again, and just talk for Have some time and you can save those stories and tell our listeners yourself if you don’t mind. That’s fine. That’s great. Awesome. Well, hey, I hope this was fun for you because it was fun for us. And this was part two of a living history of hedonism, too. This is the wind to change. This is the guy that brought change to hedonism to and his name is john gross. And john, we thank you very much for your time today. Thank you for your courtesy and doing this again, since we screwed up and lost our audio.


Jon Gross – Fluffernutters  1:00:30

It was my pleasure and now you guys have to go out and drink some tequila and listen Yeah, I shouldn’t even be on the microphone this afternoon. I’ll be out there every day wearing my hat. Yeah, isn’t like you guys do like a dildo something rather. Shirt contest. You guys do have fun. There’s several I do a game called martial. We do the game called marshmallow my ass you’ll have to ask you about that next time we talk all right all right, guys. Hey, john.


Mickey Gordon  1:01:03

Thank you very much. We’re gonna we’re gonna call this thing close. But thank you very much. This was a living history hedonism to everybody you’ve been listening to casual swinger.


Mallory Gordon  1:01:19

Welcome back to casual swinger guys, Mallory here and Mickey. And about this time, I’m half in the bag on the beach in Jamaica, and just trying to get her to blow me. Know, try, just do.


Mickey Gordon  1:01:32

Do or do not there is no try. Hey, guys, that was john gross from the fluffernutter. So hopefully you enjoyed that interview. That was a lot of fun for us to do. And I feel like we really gave you guys a piece of something that I don’t really know that’s out there, how it happened, how that acquisition happened, and ultimately how our friend Harry Lang came into power. So we’re looking forward to introducing you in the next episode to the hedonist in chief. So that should be pretty cool.


Mallory Gordon  1:01:58

Yeah, I’m very excited about that one.


Mickey Gordon  1:02:00

But that’s going to be a wrap. for this episode. We’ll catch you again here in about a week with the third piece of a living history of hedonism, too.


Mallory Gordon  1:02:08

Alright, guys, take care. I’ll talk to you soon. Hi,



I’m Venus from the Venus calculus podcast, and I have a special message for all of the single ladies listening. What if you could have a loving, committed partner who wants to stay totally faithful to you, but who would love to see you have incredible experiences with others? It sounds too good to be true, right? It is true. You really can have it all and be loved, celebrated and even put on a pedestal. Learn more at Venus connections.com