Heaven Forbid! – Faith, shame, the evangelical power structure meet the lifestyle

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All these words seem to go together and run contrary to the love we learned in Sunday School, especially when sexuality and faith are at odds in your average evangelical’s lifestyle.


The recent dilemma Jerry Falwell Jr. found himself in only serves to illustrate the power of the religious right, the “moral majority,” and other institutions whose faith based leadership is called into question when their status as a sexual being is revealed.  We sat down with a non-denominational religious leader from 7th Dimension Coaches to talk about these things & more in this week’s Casual Swinger:  HEAVEN FORBID!  

Mercury News – Falwell Jr Liked Watching

The Medium – Comedian John Crist did WHAT?!

The Medium –  The Evangelical Femme Fatale 

The Medium – How to be a sex positive Christian

7th Dimension Coaches

Rachals Rascals

IOS Connections

Double Date Nation

Casual Toys


Hearing impaired? This podcast is transcribed for your convenience.

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Heaven Forbid

Thu, 9/2 10:04AM • 1:09:03


people, evangelical, question, shame, talk, church, god, swinger, liberty university, hear, cindy, power, outed, listening, casual, call, pastor, happened, friends, faith


Cindy (Pastor), Mitch (Pastor), Mickey Gordon, Mallory Gordon


Mallory Gordon  00:02

You’re listening to the casual swinger podcast as your hosts, we need to warn you that the material you’re about to hear may be sexual or explicit in nature. This podcast is intended for an adult audience. Now we don’t expect you to act like adults. What’s the fun in that?


Mickey Gordon  00:16

We’re a married couple living in Florida with over 13 years of experience in the lifestyle and we take almost nothing seriously. Casual swingers a variety show meaning we’ll cover everything from music to events, travel, and even the occasional hilarious screw up. Our show is about entertainment. We’re not licensed professionals had anything and our stories, commentary and guidance should not be confused with the opinions of a licensed professional.


Mallory Gordon  00:41

Now that you know, let’s stick those pants off and get comfy. Hi, everyone, you’re listening to casual swinger. I’m your co host Mallory


Mickey Gordon  00:53

got it is sexy when you do that while you’re rubbing your leg. This is Mickey. I’m the other host of this show watching Mallory just sit here and look hot.


Mallory Gordon  01:03

Oh, I love you. I’m in my fuzzy some frozen rope.


Mickey Gordon  01:06

It’s a naked enemy you are I can see that I’m, this is gonna make recording this lead and really difficult but I’m gonna I’m gonna soldier through because I believe. Anyway, guys, this is season three, Episode Seven of casual swinger. My name is Mickey. And this episode is called Heaven forbid.


Mallory Gordon  01:25

What does that mean heaven for bed?


Mickey Gordon  01:27

Well, this episode is going to be kind of a twist for some of our listeners. And you know, not all of our listeners are in the lifestyle. A lot of folks that listen to the show are sex positive, or are just thinking about the lifestyle or want to hear more about it. Maybe they’re fascinated by it. And we’ve heard a lot in the news recently about Jerry Falwell, Jr, and Liberty University and kind of his fall from grace. And it really struck a chord with me. You know, there’s a few things in my history in the Virginia area that have to do with liberty. And I really felt like it was important, I came across a quote, and I want you guys to hear this. And then we’re going to talk about a bunch of other shit. And then we’ll get into this episode. But I want you to think about this quote, while you hear what happens today on casual swinger, I’m ready. This quote says that when the evangelical sexual ethic is built on shame, we can’t be surprised when hidden lives are exposed. When the evangelical pursuit of power is celebrated as God’s divine plan, we can’t be surprised when the mighty continue to fall. Hmm. Think about that, as you listen to the conversation we have today with one of our favorite people. And you know, we say this with every guest, because we love all of our guests. But this guy, first of all, one of our one of our top rated shows that we’ve had yet. And we had Mitch and Cindy, who are seventh dimension coaches, but their non denominational evangelical leaders from the great left coast.


Mallory Gordon  02:50

Yes, yeah, we really do love these guys. Some of the conversations I’ve had with them over the course of the short time we’ve known them at this point. I mean, it feels like I’ve known them forever. But they really struck a chord with me, and I really feel we were meant to become friends. Yeah. The University of


Mickey Gordon  03:09

Ghana just floated up to us and literally really did. And literally, I really believe you that they were meant to meet us, because we have had some conversations that have even changed my views on faith, which is pretty hard to do


Mallory Gordon  03:21

very, very hard.


Mickey Gordon  03:22

And I was so excited that he was willing to join us to have this conversation for you, for people out there that do have faith but are concerned about your livelihood, or your life or, or your life in your church in your community, should you ever be outed how to deal with it, and where some of these things come from and create these situations. So we’re going to talk about that a little bit later. Because we got a little bit more of this lead in, we want to get in for you guys. So let’s get to the good stuff first. And let’s give some folks some reasons to go to some websites and click on stuff and do things. Okay, so Alright, we’re, what’s First, let’s first let’s How about don’t date nation? Oh, yeah, that’s


Mallory Gordon  03:59

right. We have what 25 days left. So as of today, this releases tomorrow. So 24, yes. Before the lifetime membership, special dealio runs out. And if they sign up for the lifetime, before September 30. They’re entered in to a drawing to get a free womanizer.


Mickey Gordon  04:17

That’s right, a womanizer premium courtesy of casual toys calm. This sounds like a cheesy ad. But it’s really not. We love those guys, we’re not advertising for them, per se, but they are going away whether you enter or not, whether you buy a lifetime membership or not, you won’t be able to buy it on October 1. But you can buy it between now and then. Then you’re going to get access to that app. And trust us when we tell you there’s something coming you’re gonna want to be Oh, man,


Mallory Gordon  04:39

I can’t wait to Let’s announce. But if you want to jump on and try it, I think you get how many days free?


Mickey Gordon  04:45

Well, you get 90 days but you don’t have you don’t have 90 days to buy the membership right


Mallory Gordon  04:48

now. No, but I’m just saying if they want to try it first before they make a decision. Yeah.


Mickey Gordon  04:52

So you can use our code or anybody else’s code for that matter, and get 90 days free. Our code happens to be casual 19 And you can get that 90 days. So you can use, you know, 23 of those days, just make sure that you do the lifetime if you’re going to do it before September 30, because on September 30, he’s going to give me a name when he gives me a name. We’re gonna send you a womanizer. Premium. That’s a $200 sex toy.


Mallory Gordon  05:16

And ladies, it is life changing. I


Mickey Gordon  05:20

said about my passion.


Mallory Gordon  05:22

Well, it did change my life. I I committed to that penis


Mickey Gordon  05:25

You did? I’ve been walking funny.


Mallory Gordon  05:29

Only sometimes,


Mickey Gordon  05:30

I’ve acclimated. Now you can just take it Well, look, that’s always not just a toy. Matter of fact, we saw some friends just a couple of weeks ago. We’re gonna talk about that here in a couple of minutes. But we actually broke out that womanizer and talked about it. I think I talked about it at length for like, 35 minutes. Yeah.


Mallory Gordon  05:45

It’s great. It’s great because like, you’re so technical about it. And it’s just so cute to see you hold my you know, pissy vibrator and go over like the technical like attributes and the design and the patents and the performance and the guarantees of sex toy engineers. It was like a snake oil salesman, but it’s actually good product. It was just hilarious. Maybe


Mickey Gordon  06:09

I’m just fucking good at it.


Mallory Gordon  06:10

Okay, it’s slices. It dices in it does hair. Like it was it was good.


Mickey Gordon  06:16

Yeah, it was pretty cool. Hey, you know what, speaking of things that are prizes for you. You have a birthday coming in less than two weeks. Guess what? Everybody? Mallory’s turning 21


Mallory Gordon  06:27

Yeah, finally. Oh, it’s


Mickey Gordon  06:29

been a long time. Hey,


Mallory Gordon  06:30

I haven’t asked you to buy me beer.


Mickey Gordon  06:34

That’s right, we got a birthday coming in casual swinger studios. So we’re gonna talk about that at some point to maybe next episode. We still don’t know what we’re gonna do. So where should we go for Mallory’s birthday? Let us know if you’re listening to this episode right now where I ought to take the sexy girl for her birthday in the COVID times


Mallory Gordon  06:51

I just wanted to go down.


Mickey Gordon  06:53

Oh, I’m gonna do that as soon as recordings every keep showing me that. Alright, so there it is again. I swear. Alright, but we have a few rooms left for our November trip.


Mallory Gordon  07:03

Oh, that’s right. We’re almost sold out.


Mickey Gordon  07:06

We are. We’re almost sold out for the trip. We still have a couple of rooms and a couple of categories left that is November 7 through the 14th at hedonism to in Negril, Jamaica home. And we have not been there since February. Last time I was there I got sick and shit and missed most of the trip. So I’m really really really looking forward to going back.


Mallory Gordon  07:22

Yeah, I’m really excited to


Mickey Gordon  07:24

Yeah, so join us and join our friends at dirty perv week. We’re gonna be this week. We are there at secrets this weekend right now. And we’re I heard


Mallory Gordon  07:32

I heard everyone Yeah, everyone’s been you know, messaging and like, they look like they’re having a great time. They really



good on them.


Mickey Gordon  07:40

I’m really glad they’re there. They’re having a good time. And they really blown the roof off that joint, which is a good thing, but they’re going to be with us. They’re going to be there well a long time along with us at the same time. Let me get that right. But it’s, it’s gonna be awesome. And that’s it. He knows them too. That’s November 7 through the 14th we still have a couple of rooms left. Come join us for a party that’s going to melt your face.


Mallory Gordon  08:00

Love that. And you can find that under the travel with us tab and casuals finger comm


Mickey Gordon  08:04

that is also correct or you can go yourself to Rachel’s rascals calm. That’s our AC h a. L rascals.com. Rachel’s rascals and goes check it out and see what the rates are and what rooms are available. What else we got? What have we been up to? How about p cat VP cat?


Mallory Gordon  08:20

Yeah, we did a thing. We did a thing


Mickey Gordon  08:24

with our friend that you know, so when P cap got cancelled. It was a heartbreaker for a lot of us especially as content creators. You support Kate the way we do. We love what she does. We love attention to detail. And when it got canceled, we were heartbroken for her because I really wanted the world to see what she created. We got some inside views to what p cap was going to be. And I’ve never seen anything like it. I’ve been doing this a long time.


Mallory Gordon  08:49

Yeah, and with everything she had planned, I’m pretty sure what’s going to happen is all of that badass shit. She had, like teed up. It’s gonna be that plus a bag of chips.


Mickey Gordon  08:58

Yeah, it gives her an extra year to plan.


Mallory Gordon  08:59

Yeah, yeah, so super stoked for the announcement when she’s ready to roll that out.


Mickey Gordon  09:04

Yeah, me too. And how horny is everybody gonna be?


Mallory Gordon  09:07

Oh my gosh, it’s gonna be like Caligula


Mickey Gordon  09:11

think, Oh, God, I don’t I don’t know he is going to be I don’t know if she’s going to change the theme or keep the stuff she did. It’s, but it’s just going to be amazing. And trust this. We saw a lot of this and we were brokenhearted to miss out on it. So what we did is we hooked up with double detonation for virtual podcast Palooza, and said we’re gonna do something that people can really relate to, right because we had some opportunities to do some silly things or some crazy things. I love, love love with the bad hoppers did, yes, live writing of a porno. But we decided we were going to do a live double date with WD nation. And we were going to talk about prepping for a date, the do’s the don’ts, like the things to eat things not to eat, how to act, how to data act after a successful date, how to act after a bad day. But the best part was we Set it up, like a date with like tables and silverware and weddings. Yeah. Butler,


Mallory Gordon  10:05

oh my gosh, our waiter, who was Jay from average swingers national guests and his beautiful wife, uh, handling some of the technical stuff and making sure you know, everything was going smoothly in the background. But I mean, oh my god, he knocked it out of the park. It was


Mickey Gordon  10:21

good. And there were things that we didn’t what I love about working with Jan Angie, is we don’t even have to talk. Like so here’s what happened. So Angie was working the terminal, and she could see the questions that were coming in. I was writing them down on pieces of paper. And when Jay would come up and do this silly shit, right? He was handing me slips of paper with the questions on him so I could answer them. And I had no terminal in front. No,


Mallory Gordon  10:42

and I had no idea this was going on. I was like, This is fucking ransom note. Like what’s


Mickey Gordon  10:45

happening is genius. Jay was dressed as a butler he had a tuxedo on from the waist up, but he was asked naked from the waist down.


Mallory Gordon  10:54

I love that the napkin was over his penis. Oh, cute.


Mickey Gordon  10:57

So for those of you that don’t know, Jay from average swingers has a robo deck, which means his dick never ever ever goes down until he wants it to. That’s amazing, which is amazing. I


Mallory Gordon  11:06

think that’s like a big selling point. Like if you had to have a resume for like sex that has to be at the top of the list.


Mickey Gordon  11:12

I’m sure it’s somewhere on Angie’s List like my husband’s penis never ever ever goes down Angie’s List.


Mallory Gordon  11:16

That’s kind of funny Angie’s List. But David Andy were fantastic. I love collaborating with those guys as well. Like they’re just amazing.


Mickey Gordon  11:25

Yeah, well, I honestly think Jay stole the show from all of us because I don’t want to sell DVDs short. They were so great. We had such good chemistry with them. It really helped sell. I know some of the conversation. I


Mallory Gordon  11:37

thought I was like we’re gonna close the deal. This has happened I thought


Mickey Gordon  11:40

we were getting No kidding. It didn’t work out. It was really Dave’s fault. Yeah, yeah. A little sexy dude,


Mallory Gordon  11:47



Mickey Gordon  11:50

But it was so much fun. If you get a chance. Make sure to check out some of the video from virtual podcast Palooza because those are still available. Check with Kate it’s swinging down under or check out podcast, dash a dash palooza.com for information about next year’s event are getting video from this year’s event because some of it is downright awesome. We got to things session on consent was also very well received. Love it.


Mallory Gordon  12:15

Oh, I’m not surprised everything these guys do. It’s fantastic.


Mickey Gordon  12:19

Yeah. And I gotta tell you, with everything that’s been going on, it really was good to see Dave and Andy and J and Angie.


Mallory Gordon  12:26

At that fed my soul.


Mickey Gordon  12:27

It did hard. And I know there’s a lot of people to get worked up right now about people that are getting together during COVID. What I can tell you guys is that all of us made sure that we didn’t really see anybody else for two weeks. Right? We did take a flight there. So and we wore masks and did all that we did everything we could do to protect ourselves. But we really wanted to give the most back to the community that we could. Yeah,


Mallory Gordon  12:46

you’re absolutely right.


Mickey Gordon  12:47

We took a risk. And so far, it’s worked out fine. None of us are sick. We’re all fine. We’re, yeah, we’re good as crazy and perverted as we were before it happened, but it was really good to see our friends. Yep.


Mallory Gordon  12:56

And I’m still mourning


Mickey Gordon  12:57

you will Oh, I can tell. So let’s talk a little bit about heaven forbid, and Mitch and Cindy. And really why we felt like we needed to do this. I know at the beginning of the lead, and we talked about the quote that really struck me and made me think about this. But yeah,


Mallory Gordon  13:11

absolutely. So for those of you that don’t know, Jerry Falwell Jr. was asked to leave Liberty University based on the fact that his wife was having sex with the pool boy, and yours for eight years. And now it’s coming out that it was the air quotes, and affair. And it was unbeknownst to him. But according to the pool boy, Jerry Falwell, Jr. Yeah, like to watch. So essentially, this this was framed as a hot wife situation. And based on the fact that he probably had money coming his way as long as he morally could stay intact. Here comes the wife and, you know, like a speed bump under the bus.


Mickey Gordon  13:53

Yeah, well, she threw herself under the bus. Yeah, what we found out during the course of this interview is she threw herself under the bus for $10 million. Yeah. What would you not do for $10 million? Mallory tell our listeners


Mallory Gordon  14:06

a lot for free. I don’t know. It’s just it seems really archaic and the dichotomy of the relationship like you know, the male, you know, ego and the male morality has to stay intact, but it’s much more acceptable for the female to be this vicious trollop? Yeah, and that that just hits me in a spot that I don’t like,


Mickey Gordon  14:27

well, and I didn’t like it either, obviously, and what I really don’t like is the articles that have been flowing freely since then. Oh, yeah. Other evangelical celebrities have taken a shot there’s a comedian we talked about during the interview that took a shot. CNN actually came out with an article about cut holding Yeah, very soon after that, and talking about frankly, how cuckolding could be a positive for certain relationships. So I kind of like that and I bet our friends like colder as Venus or or front porch or people like that who hot wife or colder stag, vixen or any anybody that’s, that’s in that sort of species. Probably down and they’re probably happy to hear that there’s the conversations happening. But what we wanted to focus on is not that aspect of it not the coding or the hot wifing. But why is it as an evangelical, that it’s news number one, why is it news that they were having? consensually non monogamous sex? Right? Why is that news number one? And why were they vilified for it? Why did he have to leave his position over it? And what does it mean for evangelicals that our lifestyle, our sex positive? Do you have fantasies? Do you act on their fantasies? What happens? And should they be afraid?


Mallory Gordon  15:36

Yeah, and that goes for the entire funnel not just evangelicals, but you know, religious or people of faith in general. And I think that’s a legitimate concern. Because when you talk about evangelicals, I think someone who’s got more they’re the more seen right in the public eye. So they’re, they’re put on a pedestal they look to people look to them, as leaders in that community. They do. And like you said, in your quote, you know, they don’t have a choice at this point. But to fall from grace know


Mickey Gordon  16:08

when shame is your weapon, and you were appointed by God, you said it.


Mallory Gordon  16:11

Exactly. And there’s this puritanical mindset, right? And if we’re created in God’s image, and I’m a sexual being, why is that a bad thing to be sexual or even talk about sex? Yeah.


Mickey Gordon  16:23

And if you were created in his image and your sexual then he is too so what’s the problem?


Mallory Gordon  16:29

You got me, man. So


Mickey Gordon  16:31

this is some of the stuff we talk about today and casual swinger. Now, we recorded this just a couple of mornings ago, so you’re gonna hear a good morning. It’s not morning right now. Well, maybe morning with might be, by the time a lot of this because that’s going out tomorrow night.


Mallory Gordon  16:45

Oh, I can I share my new ward.


Mickey Gordon  16:47

Oh, let’s hear your new word. Your new college word.


Mallory Gordon  16:49

Alright. So in talking to Mitch, he used this word called paracord, rhesus, which I had never heard before. And it actually references um, it’s, it’s I think Greek, if I remember correctly,


Mickey Gordon  17:01

isn’t rikugien but it talks


Mallory Gordon  17:02

about the relationships of the Holy Trinity rate, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and his take on it and his description. I mean, I, that made me actually a little happy because I never thought of it in that perspective. I don’t want to give away the


Mickey Gordon  17:23

No, this isn’t. Here, guys. Listen to this one all the way through to the end. Because you’re gonna hear words like para curry CES, and you’re going to hear from one of our most lauded guests, somebody that everyone loves listening to and a guy that might just change the way that you look at faith and evangelism.


Mallory Gordon  17:41

I will say, for me, personally, I’ve been impacted 100% Now, that sounds like I have constipation.


Mickey Gordon  17:50

I’m really you fix that? Yeah, I’m gonna leave it no worries impacted folks.


Mallory Gordon  17:54

Oh, my god, no, no, but he. I just love the guy. I love listening to him. In fact, in the interview, I had to stop and take like, really, really digest every single word. He really did. Yeah, he blew us away. He always blows us away. He


Mickey Gordon  18:09

blew us away. And we met him he blew us away Ito and I think he’s gonna blow you away today and help you if you are a person of faith and you do have fears about everything that’s going on and how these people have been treated. This is going to be a perspective change episode of casual swinger for you, but before we get out of here, why don’t you let everybody know where they can find us?


Mallory Gordon  18:28

Oh, I thought you would do it this time since you did not


Mickey Gordon  18:31

go well.


Mallory Gordon  18:33

To hear it. Alright guys, we’re casual swinger everywhere. reached out to us casual swinger.com you can contact us there a podcast at casual swinger comm if you have questions. You could find us on social media, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube and Instagram, as well as the dating sites because, you know, we’re swingers, so we’d like to fuck, that’s double detonation, STC SLS Cassidy and quiver.


Mickey Gordon  18:58

I like it so much better when she does that. And I know you do too. We’ll be back in just a minute after this with more heaven forbid, you’ve been listening to casuals swinger Oh god. Everybody. Good morning and welcome back to casual swinger. My name is Mickey. And I’m


Mallory Gordon  19:29



Mickey Gordon  19:30

I am so excited to be back with you guys today for this one. I know we talked about it in the lead in but this is an episode that a couple of weeks ago, we looked at each other and said we have to do it. And you know what we’re talking about is the new cycle for the last couple of weeks. It’s been utterly dominated by the fall from grace of Jerry Falwell Jr. his resignation from his post as president of Liberty University has spiritual and political implications for millions of people around America. Maybe the world. his life’s work set an end at least for now. His followers fellow parishioners and students are questioning his dedication, his moral compass and his faith in response to allegations of his hot wife relationship spanning eight years when he and his wife and now 28 year old pool boy from Miami. The question we need to answer today is why. So today we’re gonna examine the nature of evangelical superiority, the power of the canceled culture and its foundations in shame. We’re going to talk about the sobering reality of the now validated fears between the scores of sexually liberated and evangelicals around the world. What happens when I’m discovered? So we’re joined today by two of our favorites, we’re joined by non denominational religious leaders, pastors kidness. And our friends Michonne. Cindy, guys,


Mitch (Pastor)  20:38

are you. Good? Good to be with good to be with you guys. Oh, we missed you so much. We miss you guys too. Too far away. Yeah, that’s


Mickey Gordon  20:47

that whole continent between us is really a bitch. But look, guys, I mean, we’ve got a lot to cover here. There’s so much going on in the world today. And I can’t thank you enough for getting up at Oh, dark 30 to do this with us, because you knew this mattered so much to us. But thank you for that. You’re welcome. So first of all, Mitch and Cindy, you guys are together first. So how have you been? Tell us what you’ve been up to? And then we’ll kind of get into our questions.


Mitch (Pastor)  21:12

Yeah, thanks for asking. It’s been a hard year like for everybody. It’s the weirdest year I’ve ever experienced. And we’ve had some kind of big losses and some things that bring some sadness and grief, travel got canceled, we had a trip to Europe that got canceled to celebrate an anniversary. And that was kind of hard. We had our daughter’s wedding postponed, which would have been our first wedding and something we’re totally looking forward to. And while it’s still gonna happen that got postponed, and just other stresses and anxiety. So yeah, on a personal level, I don’t want to lie and say it’s all been peachy, because it’s not. It’s been a really hard year. How about you? I mean,


Cindy (Pastor)  21:52

yeah, I would agree. I think travel, the loss of travel, things that we had work or travel fund related has been difficult, just, you know, you look forward to things. And sure, it’s been all too. There’s been a lot of losses for a lot of people. And not just people dying of COVID. But at the things of disappointments of expectations.


Mitch (Pastor)  22:18

Yeah. Which is why we look forward to fun times to interact with people like you, oh, keeps this guy


Mickey Gordon  22:24

he’s talking about you. It’s definitely


Mallory Gordon  22:27

Same here. I think I didn’t realize how much I depended on being transient to stay connected with people. Until all of this happen. For me emotionally, mentally, same thing, a lot of a lot of things got cancelled, you know, physical distances between people I truly deeply care about has been a struggle for me, because I depend on those little glimmers in between, you know, you know, indeterminate amounts of time throughout the year. And now it’s just been not at all. So it’s I think everyone’s kind of in that same boat.


Cindy (Pastor)  22:55

Yeah, yeah. You realize how important people are? Yes,


Mallory Gordon  22:58

yeah. Yeah, it’s gonna be a lot of long, awkward hugs from me the first time I get to see my people make it weird. I’m gonna make it weird.


Mickey Gordon  23:07

So let’s dig in. Because we got a lot going on here today. So So mitchinson, you first of all, your episode with us was one of the most popular for so many reasons. You guys have an honest and heartfelt approach to God that inspired her listeners and honestly gave us a little bit of our faith back in religious leaders. So Jerry Falwell, Jr, found himself in a genuinely miserable situation. And as a religious leader, and as a result of his alleged participation in the lifestyle. The subsequent explosion has ended his career, his wife’s reputation has been ruined, partly by her own doing, because she came out in front of it. But and now his role in the church is anything about this. Okay.


Mitch (Pastor)  23:49

Yeah, it’s a great question. What a debacle. It seems like it’s crazy. You know, my first thought it to that question is, I think he’ll be just fine, because I read somewhere that he’s getting a $10 million severance from the university. So yeah, most of us wouldn’t care about being outed with that kind of consequence of a $10 million severance. So you know, that’s okay. But you know, it’s not okay. Because if you believe the pool attendant, and I’m not sure if we have any reason to not believe him at this point. But if you believe the pool attendant, the plan from the beginning was kind of to throw his wife under the bus for Jerry to throw Becky under the bus to protect himself and then to call Granda the pool attendant a predator and it’s never okay to treat people as disposable. That’s just wrong. That’s not okay. It’s also not okay, because it’s an example of an institution. In this case, Liberty University demanding to control someone’s private life and dictate what they do or don’t do. All those behaviors make this really, really not okay. On the flip side, though, it sort of is okay. It’s actually really good because I think it’s an indicator of a number of things. It seems like you can’t use your personal belief system to legislate morality. And if we’re to go back, right, this movement started with Jerry Falwell’s father Jerry Falwell senior in 1979, who founded the Moral Majority, right? And some of your listeners are old enough to probably remember that and others like what, what, what, what, what, what’s that. And that was the impetus behind religion, using its power in the political arena, really the religious right, which is built off of this movement. And so this is huge. This is why it’s such a huge story. Because when you come from a father who founded the Moral Majority, and then this happens, people look and go, where’s the disconnect here, but at a deeper level, it’s To me, it’s just one more example of how there’s a sickness within the evangelical movement that contributes to this kind of hypocrisy, and I’ll put that in air quotes there, okay, like hypocrisy, saying one thing and then doing something else. But again, Liberty University has a reputation for being one of the most judgmental legalistic religious institutions of higher education. So this is why this is sort of, okay. It feels like a bit of a purifying, and it points out how this is really about some deeper issues like power in shame, right. The evangelical sexual ethic is built on shame, evangelical pursuit of power is celebrated as God’s divine plan. Should we be surprised then when the mighty continue to fall? So yeah, there’s a few thoughts for you.


Mallory Gordon  26:33

Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with you. I think once that standard had said, you know, you have no choice but to fall from grace, because it’s, it’s a high bar. And I think it goes against our nature as human beings. We’re very, very sexual.


Mickey Gordon  26:49

And Mitch pointed out something that they that actually came up during the, it was the zoning or not the zoning, but the city council of Fort Wayne, Illinois, when they were trying to shut down the champagne club. Right. Their Mayor actually said, you cannot legislate morality. It actually came up in a session just about six months ago.


Mallory Gordon  27:08

Yeah. Yep. And I’m glad that there’s people speaking out using that language.


Mitch (Pastor)  27:13

Yep. And that some will always continue to try. But that’s at the heart of this issue. Right.


Mallory Gordon  27:18

Yeah. So with all this going on, should sex positive event evangelicals be worried about their own, like possible exposure or being outed in this environment? Because of that? Yeah, good


Mitch (Pastor)  27:29

question. I think that depends. If you plan to play the evangelical game, or ever happened to be in the type of religious environment that will cast you out, then yes, you better be worried. You don’t have to be worried. But you better be extremely careful. This this happens, you know, we had this happen to us early on, when we were just kind of getting used to what what is this? What is this like? And we were getting used to just nakedness and we’d gone to a nude beach. And we were on a trip. And we were with a couple who were friends at a river. And, and Cindy decided to say to her friend, hey, what if we take our tops off and tan topless? And the girl was like, Okay, yeah, let’s do that. And me and the guy were away getting beer or something. And when we came back, the girl started freaking out, like, Oh, we got to put our toss back on because the guys are coming back. And so all this discussion happened. And then Cindy shared, but we you know, we got into a nude beach and etc. Long story short, these friends just freaked out on us and basically came to our house and accused us of being pedophiles because of the fact that we were comfortable with our nakedness. And then they went farther. And they went to the church, and she was in counseling at the church where the pastor and she told the pastor everything. And then he told a bunch of people, which legally is not even allowed in a counseling situation. So this is something we can relate to a little bit. I mean, it’s not at the level, obviously, of what we’re seeing here in the news. But when people go and they talk, and then churches decide that they can do things and try to control people’s lives, it creates problems. I mean, we went through months and months of having to talk to people and explain to them and tell them, the cool part was everybody, everybody supported us. Everybody just was like you guys are fine. Not even an issue. But that’s the kind of thing that happens if you play the evangelical game. I’m flabbergasted.


Mallory Gordon  29:23

I am too because the it sounds like the the precipice the the thing that drove that person to go talk about it in counseling and give out information about somebody else who, obviously you guys bring counseling to and then for them to share that was to change your behavior that made them uncomfortable, or they disagreed with which.


Mitch (Pastor)  29:42

Yeah, yeah, it was totally about them. And I was told later by someone that really knows who’s a professional and a consultant in this whole industry. What happened in that church, I could have sued the church, we could have sued the church and one because you’re not allowed to even do that. So a lot of what happens in this kind of you know, try to legislate morality world, our churches or organizations doing things that they’re not even allowed to do, it’s actually illegal to do that. I look back, you know, I don’t want to be the kind of person that sues churches. But part of me wishes I had done that, just for the justice of what was going on there, that the pastor listened to it, then the pastor gossiped and went and told, and it was an ass,


Mickey Gordon  30:21

you know. So there are times when you have to stand up and teach their bitch acid lesson,


Mallory Gordon  30:26

right? He wants it good for them for taking it and going, this is an educational opportunity, because everyone already knows. And if they’re coming to us, and they want clarity, you know,


Mickey Gordon  30:38

are we suggesting, Mitch that there’s a potential witch hunt in certain realms of the evangelical culture. Now that this is out now that all these articles are coming out in this conversation is starting? I mean, is that something we’re looking at here?


Mitch (Pastor)  30:54

That’s a great question. I would not say from a macro sense, no, the whole evangelical movement is not a witch hunt by any means. But I do think there are people embedded in it that Yeah, they’ve got far too much time on their hands. And they would love to be able to find out more dirt and expose it if you could. And I’ve had a little experience with that and seen that. So I wouldn’t doubt if we saw more and more of that happening. When something’s just public, you don’t exactly have to do that. Right, though the news and information flows pretty freely. But yeah, there might be some that are that dangerous, you know, but I would assume a lot of your listeners have left the system though the evangelical system for those that might have identified at one point, you know, in that way. So you know, if that’s what you’ve done, if you’ve left the system in a way that no longer affects you, or you happen to be fortunate enough to be in a faith community that doesn’t think your personal life is any of its business, or better yet, might even applaud your freedom, then no, you probably have nothing to worry about. And and there are places like that which is which is amazing to me that you know, there are faith communities that people realize you hate people have freedom, and it’s really their personal lives are none of our business. If you’re part of that kind of faith community, you’re probably good, but you still should be wise, right? Even Jesus says this, quote, be wise as serpents innocent as doves. And I think that applies to this whole area that we’re talking about. There are so many that have left that the evangelical churches Well, they’re called x vendula calls or D evangelicals. And one reason so many people are going to leave in the Evangelical Church in droves, is because of this type of hypocritical policing behavior.


Mallory Gordon  32:35

Well, I’ve never heard those terms before, but now they’re going in my lexicon, FYI. So back to Becky falwell, when she came out, ostensibly in support of her husband, and she took full responsibility for this affair she denied, like all the involvement from her husband and claiming that this eight year was an Aaron. Aaron judgment for the affair. So in your opinion, what’s, what’s the play here? I mean, Will it work? Do you think like the audience that’s listening and watching this believe that it was just her having an affair? Yeah.


Mitch (Pastor)  33:11

You know, my, my read on that it’s hard to tell at this point. But in that system, it’s safer if she’s the scapegoat, and she takes the blame, right? It’s possible that if he’s implicated if Jerry is the one implicated in this in any way, shape, or form, he forfeits his ability to receive his $10 million severance. So I don’t know that to be a fact. But so much of this can become about money. Case in point in 2018, another megachurch pastor, who I’m sure many of your leaders will be familiar with, if I said his name, was accused of at least 10 women of inappropriate emotional and sexual involvement. And this is a person on the global scale that actually was speaking to more people than probably any religious leader, anywhere. And so when he was accused of these things, which all were under investigation and found to be true, he went underground just disappeared, took an early retirement, and nobody could figure out why. And then later on, came to find out that he’s worth about $40 million. And if he admitted anything, he would be the likely target of a lawsuit. And so really, this became about the money again, just disappeared, no ownership, no admission, no apology, even and disappeared off the face of the earth, you know, but but ultimately, it won’t work because who are we more likely to believe? Right? Are we going to believe them? Or the pool boy?


Mallory Gordon  34:39

Yeah, that’s a good point.


Mickey Gordon  34:42

So Mallory, I have a question for you. Would you would you declare yourself a harlot in front of all creation for us to get $10 million?


Mallory Gordon  34:48

I do it the second


Mickey Gordon  34:50

but we’d probably do it.


Mallory Gordon  34:52

I I’m, I’m a little bit of a rebel. I’d wear my scarlet letter with pride. You know, I wouldn’t go into hiding. You know, I think we’ve reached a point in our lives in our world. lationship that if we were outed, I don’t 100% I wouldn’t have a choice. You know, we do it to protect our livelihood and our vanilla lives.


Mickey Gordon  35:09

I think we do it more to protect our kids, right? Because we, you know, our kids are older, but we don’t want them to have to apologize for us.


Mallory Gordon  35:15

Well, and then that goes hand in hand, too. Right? You know, because if something were to happen, and we lost our jobs, because that would suck. It’s is it plausible? Maybe? Likely? Probably not. But also aren’t we have kids that are under 18? So yeah, so I that’s why that’s wise as a serpent. Yeah. No,


Mickey Gordon  35:33

it’s not to do anything utterly stupid. So let’s talk about getting outed for a second as a person of faith. How would you advise a person of faith to react when they’re outed within their own individual faith?


Mitch (Pastor)  35:47

That’s a great question. That’s probably probably the scariest question we might talk about here today. And because I think so many people live with that fear all the time. Have a few thoughts come to mind with that. There’s a scripture where Jesus even says, what what do you when all people speak well of you. And what that reminds us is, no one’s ever going to fully agree with you. And yet many of us are people pleasing enough that we want everybody to agree with us, like us, except us or whatever. And yet, from Jesus standpoint, when all people speak well of you, you’re probably doing something wrong. You’re not living true to who you are. So when this kind of thing happens, no, you’re in good company, you’re kind of in Jesus company, because he got rejected for telling the truth about things as well. Which I just find it really interesting verse. There’s another verse in book James that says, be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to become angry. And I think that would be a really good place to start. If if something happens if information comes out, Listen, don’t do a lot of talking. Don’t get angry, you know, take the high road be be the bigger person, stay humble, I want to hurt a very wise person once say, you have no need to be defensive. And yet, our first reaction probably is just to get really defensive. So what a great example, when something happens when you can be the bigger person and not be defensive, even when you’re accused, wrongly accused, attacked, slandered, things come out that shouldn’t come out about you, the way you respond can be an example of really love and goodness, which says something about the kind of person you are. So don’t let someone else you know, change that. Now, at the same time, don’t don’t expect others to understand your views on consensual non monogamy. That’s not going to be an easy sell. No. It’s just not it’s going to take some time. I mean, eventually, who knows, you know, someone could get there. And you might want to do a little research on that and have your have your ducks in a row for how to explain it. But don’t expect them to understand that right off the bat. But again, this stuff’s happening all the time. I mean, in my own experience, I had one experience with with a male worship leader that hooked up with a female pastor and their spouses. And so they were swinging in that way and and got outed, and it sort of became a problem for a while, and then it sort of went away for them. Another church where I was actually at were two couples in the church, or swinging together. Sadly, one couple ended up getting divorced. But it came out and they ended up being okay. I heard about it wasn’t mine, but in a counseling situation where a woman couldn’t forgive her best friend. And when asked why in this counseling situation, it was because they’d had a threesome and her friend was having her husband’s baby. Now try to figure that out in a counseling situation.


Mallory Gordon  38:38

Oh, yeah, that’s, that’s heavier.


Mitch (Pastor)  38:41

Yeah, that’s really, really heavy. So these are the kinds of things I have someone else telling me recently, they came across a pastor who was seeking counsel on how to be polyamorous. And he didn’t know how to do that and be a pastor. And this person didn’t even know what that was. They had to look that up. Because you know, so these are the kinds of things that are increasing all the time and are coming out. And so we’re going to see more of it. Bottom line, I think you need a lot of compassion, a lot of grace, a lot of love, a lot of patience. And just be wise,


Mickey Gordon  39:13

is it fair? Because I know that a lot of evangelical leaders are asked to counsel, their parishioners, their flock, whatever you want to call them. And but they’re being asked to counsel things they have no experience with no knowledge of so they usually counsel from a from a standpoint of the Bible, because it’s the only thing they know, that’s it open.


Mitch (Pastor)  39:31

Yes, I agree. Completely agree. Yeah, most are not trained. Even those that you know, have gone to graduate school, have master’s degree doctorate degrees, etc, are not trained like they should be one of the wisest thing I think pastors can do is just refer to professional therapists that are at least going to be more likely to be able to handle situations like that. Yeah, because most are not trained in a way that they’ll even understand what to do this. And there isn’t even the same ethical guidelines required of pastors and churches, that counselors and therapists have required of them. And that’s scary. And that’s not good. So you need to be even wise about who you talk to in a counseling situation.


Mickey Gordon  40:08

Well, and to your point earlier, right. I mean, she went into a therapy session or a counseling session with her leader and talked about someone else’s business that he then turned around and shared with other people. You they don’t they’re not bound by the same client privilege? Well,


Mallory Gordon  40:24

they are they just don’t seem to respect those boundaries. Yes. And I think that comes back to the false assumption of power. I mean, when you look at it from the big picture, which brings me to my next question, because I want to talk a little bit more generically about even even I can never say it evangelical power structure. Why is shame so central to it? And why does that play in to why these like salacious details about their personal lives? They’re so you know, newsworthy?


Mitch (Pastor)  40:57

Yeah. Great question, Melanie, thanks to keywords that you just said, right, power and shame. Power is huge. If we were to go back and look in the Bible, Jesus starts off at the beginning of his ministry getting tempted by the devil, there’s this really fun story to read about how he gets tempted by the devil. And I’m sure some of your listeners will be familiar with this. And he’s tempted in three ways. One is to turn stones into bread. The other is the throne self off the temple. And the other is to bow down and worship the devil right there. And someone has said, and I’ve just loved this, that the first one turning stones into bread is a temptation to be relevant, to throw himself off the temple with a temptation to be spectacular, and to bow down and worship was a temptation to be powerful. In other words, in this story, even Jesus is tempted with this thing about power. Power is one of the greatest temptations that exists. Now his response was away from me, Satan, get out here. He didn’t get into any of those. So when these temptations come for something big, that’s the right answer. But that’s not what we see happening. In the evangelical church, the church at large has lost so much of the power and influence in one’s head. So what’s left to hang on to any semblance of power that we might get, or to create structures built on power, you know for is that Liberty Liberty University that we’re talking about here has a $1.6 billion endowment. Now, that is one form of serious power. When you’re that significant, right? That you can that you see that happening, a ridiculous amount of money. So power and money go hand in hand. The other issue that you brought up was shame. And we talked a lot about that in our last podcast with you guys. So I want to spend a lot of time talking about it. But once again, so so relevant here, so many of us have grown up in shame based systems where shame was used to control us, we live with almost a deep rooted shame in the recesses of our subconscious mind. It just can’t be a little light hearted here, kind of humorous side note, you know, I think many of us have given the finger to shame when we decided to get naked and not be ashamed. Yeah, I realized early on. Yeah, right. We’re gonna God created a clitoral for one and only reason


Mickey Gordon  43:13

right now only well, baby.


Mitch (Pastor)  43:16

Why are there so many nerves in your penis or your nipples, right? So these things, I think, and help us in the ways we get out of this place of shame, because God created us with these things that really were meant for joy and pleasure. And yet people who desire power learn pretty quickly that you can control others with shame. It’s another means to control other people. And that is just so so sad. There’s this shame based voyeurism, I think as well. You know, this is why back to that, you mentioned the salacious details here, about their personal lives. And I think this is kind of rooted in this, what I’m calling shame based voyeurism. Another case in point, another university, which shall remain nameless, there was a situation with a gal who was raped, and it’s on the internet. So it’s fairly public out there. And she was raped by these other students that were actually involved in the graduate school or seminary of the institution, or some friends of theirs. And what happened the way they treated it, they forced her to share intimate details of it in this sort of, again, counseling situation and pastoral counseling situation. And it just damaged her so greatly. There was no admission of guilt. There was no she had gone to the authorities and then they shamed her for going to the authorities about it. And they basically ended up saying you shouldn’t say anything about that man, you should just marry that man. Well, I’m like God, when when you’re in that level of shame based manipulation and control. This is like a cult as this. So so so damaging. just ridiculous. You know, even even when we got married many years ago, Cindy’s gone now because she had run off to work so I apologize for that. But when we got married, our counseling included a question in this written form we had to fill out in the church. And the question was, how far have you gone sexually? Now, the question was poised like it was meant to help us. But when we got with the pastor that actually read through our form, he started asking details, he wanted to know what we had done, what we had touched. And it was the point where I started realizing that Yeah, there was a voyeurism going on here. In the same way, this happened in this other situation, as well, in this in this rape situation where people ask details, almost more to get their kicks from the details. This is a problem in the church, and has been for many years invest the kind of shift that has got to be addressed. There’s something so healing to be able to walk away from shame, but you’ve got to be bold in doing it. It’s a mess.


Mallory Gordon  45:49

Yeah, I mean, that that sounds extremely perverse and hypocritical. I just just totally like, just in the beginning of all of that. I can’t imagine what it was like to sit there and hear those questions being asked of you go, how is this gonna help me at all? Like that epiphany must have been a little surreal. Yeah.


Mickey Gordon  46:08

So you talked at the beginning of that question about some of the temptations of Christ and how he was tempted to be spectacular and tempted to be powerful. And there if anyone that’s listening to this thinking right now, they’re also thinking about the temptations of the flesh. So we’re gonna get to that in a couple of minutes. You know, keep the faith folks pardon the pun, but we will get to it. What I want to talk about before we go down that path is, you know, right now, I mean, I just just did a quick search. And in a little conversation that we had before this conversation, I found three different articles for actually different articles where they were talking about, you know, sexual experts weighing in on evangelical sexual activity, we found one where cnn felt the need to come out and say, Well, since we’re talking about it, let’s talk about cuck. Holding on CNN, bucking, CNN had an article about cuckolding yesterday. And then we talked about how now the medium or medium is coming out and laying out john Chris, who was not really a leader, he was an evangelical comedian. And then, of course, Becky falwell gets laid out by media Megan today. So this seemingly constant flow of sex scandals, whether we’re talking about Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, Joel Osteen, which wasn’t a sex scandal, but it was a money scandal. We talk about all these various pillars of religion, does this deteriorate their ability to keep the faith? And is it right to denounce sexuality? That seems to be the Norman failing? Or is it time for the church to reverse course a little bit and start re examining the essence of shame as a motivational tool?


Mitch (Pastor)  47:39

Yeah. Oh, my God, I think you answered your own question there. Yeah. What I do, definitely, yeah, says, you know, psychologists have learned the incredible damage that shame causes. You can go out, you know, you know, just order on Amazon a book on shame and read it. If this is something you deal with, I would suggest doing that, because psychologists know, the damage it causes, but religious leaders have not caught on to that and actually continue to use it. Now. Now, there are places in churches and authors, etc, that that don’t use shame. But they’re sort of few and far between. And, yeah, I think it’s definitely of deteriorating, organized religion, and is one of the core aspects that is doing that, in my experience, most millennials and Gen Z. So younger generation adults, have that shame radar almost, that keeps them far away that and from any system that tries to use it. And yeah, they just won’t stand for it. So they’re just, they’re just done and out of there. Some of the older generations, not so much. They’re sort of used to it. It’s almost like a comfy chair, you know, that they’re used to sitting in if they listen to a sermon, it doesn’t come across with enough shame. It wasn’t a good sermon or something. It’s really, really sad.


Mallory Gordon  48:54

thing is they’re conditioned. Yeah, well, anywhere else.


Mickey Gordon  48:57

And anything else. We call in anything else, we call it bullying. Right? Why is it okay for the church to do it? But it’s not okay for our kids to do it.


Mitch (Pastor)  49:07

We just taught them how, yep, no, it’s not okay. It is not. Okay.


Mallory Gordon  49:13

Yeah, I find that fascinating. And, and I know, we poke fun at the younger generations at times, but in that example, we can learn a lot from them. Yeah, yeah. I also get the distinct impression that between like, COVID and now this mess that many evangelicals are scared for so many reasons that they’ll abandon their lifestyle to conform to kind of protect themselves. Now, assuming that, you know, COVID is, is on its way to being behind us. would you would you say should they do that?


Mitch (Pastor)  49:43

Yeah. I mean, I think this is one more justification to not take evangelicalism seriously. Rather than abandon your own lifestyle at that point. You can still take Jesus seriously. I really believe that but when when when he Church does what we’re seeing here in the news, or an institution does in the news. I mean, this is different, right? It’s a university we’re talking about. And Jerry Falwell wasn’t even a pastor, his father was, he’s not. He was a real estate guy, and a finance guy, his brother is a pastor and pastor’s the church that their father was pastor. But nonetheless, this is still an evangelical institution that holds a lot of power. But if you’re pursuing an understanding of God as love and goodness, and forgiveness and compassion and justice and mercy, kind of things we talked about in the last podcast with you guys, then that question really will answer itself for you. You know, in fact, I think it’s possible that some of the most loving, accepting non judgmental relationships you’ll have are with people in the lifestyle. Another example, that last weekend, I mentioned, Cindy, and I were at a new resort that is opened recently. And we met this new couple that was from out of town and, and they were one of the kindest humans that we had met, to just be with, I mean, you meet people, all of a sudden, all the barriers are down. And you have this sense that there’s acceptance, and a desire to get to know you in a deep way. And we already know, I mean, bonding, our need for love and connection are one of the things that As humans, we need most that’s why children need a mother at the beginning. And children who were orphaned, have such struggles throughout life, because that bonding, that human touch, that desire for deep care, in that relationship, might might not exist. Truly, a lot of Christians or religious people talk about unconditional love. And truly, you might just find unconditional love more readily at a bar or a swingers club than in a church.


Mallory Gordon  51:52

I actually have to agree with you, I think we’re, in my opinion, we’re a lot better be becoming vulnerable, being honest about who we are. And that allows us to make deeper and more long lasting bonds with other human beings and in the real life in the grocery store in church or my book club. And they everyone’s much more guarded. And it tells me a couple things that one, they’re, they’re not open to know themselves, or the stuff they know about themselves. They don’t necessarily want to reveal, because they’re ashamed. So


Mickey Gordon  52:26

I find that interesting. We talk about this all the time, we talk about Hito. Talk about keto. And we talked about the relationships that are forged to keto and how visceral they are, and how unbelievably deep they feel, despite the fact that they’re forged over seven days. And it’s great as all of the shame, all of the doubt, all of the worry, it’s all stripped away. Right. You can’t do that in an institution where you feel judged, and you feel like you have to atone for something every time you walk through the door.


Mitch (Pastor)  52:55

Nope, exactly right now. I mean, look at us. I mean, we just met you guys in November, we bumped into you in the ocean, and look where we are today.


Mickey Gordon  53:02

I love it.


Mallory Gordon  53:03

I know, hands down one of the most pivotal meetings and that I’ve ever had at Hito ever. Yeah, yeah.


Mickey Gordon  53:13

Sorry, you can’t see my face. Right.


Mallory Gordon  53:14

I call it divine intervention. Yeah.


Mickey Gordon  53:18

Yeah, I wish you could see my face right now my camera’s not working. But that is about as wide a smile as I can get when we just look Yeah. So I have something that is going to rile a few people. And as a listener of this show, you know that we are people that do have opinions, but that doesn’t mean we hold yours invalid. It just means that our opinion sometimes is different. And that’s okay.


Mallory Gordon  53:45

And that’s why we ask questions to


Mickey Gordon  53:46

Yeah. And that’s where we ask questions of experts like Mitch and Cindy. And this one’s like I said, this was going to turn a few people on there here. But I think it’s a valid question. So it’s been often said that man was made in God’s own image. Right there in the writing, you can’t miss it. But if that’s true, and we can admit that man and woman are sexual beings, isn’t it also a fair statement to suggest that God is to?


Mitch (Pastor)  54:13

Yeah, yeah, that’s a deep question. And I’m glad you said in woman because, you know, typically the Bible verse, there’s that man is created in the image of God. And that’s another issue that evangelicals have right, is misogyny and lack of equality and lack of egalitarianism with women and such, but yeah, that humans are created in the image of God. Apparently, Becky falwell is way more sexual, though. So she got she stood in that line longer, I guess, when all that stuff’s getting passed out, you know, before creation happens or whatever, but this is some deep theology. meki. So, you know, it’s a fascinating question. And we can we can smile at it, but it’s definitely some deep theology and it’s in that space of of like the unknown in a way. But if we if we’re to think of About the Trinity. And again, though any those that have grown up in church are familiar with this concept of Trinity Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And literally you get this interesting thing you got a father, that’s a male figure, which honestly makes it difficult sometimes for people to even pray like the Lord’s Prayer when father is used, because we have so many issues with Father issues, and rightly so. And then there’s the son who we know of as Jesus. And then the Holy Spirit. Interestingly enough, the Holy Spirit in the original language is female. And many people don’t know that. But the the Holy Spirit is the female aspect of the Trinity. So if you have a sense of God being three being three in one, there’s not just a male aspect of God, there’s a female aspect of God. And then there’s this interesting word called Perry kurtosis, which really just means to dance around. And one of the best ways to describe what the Trinity does is, is this Perry correct act of dancing around with each other. There is this sort of divine model of intimacy in the Godhead would be another way to say that. So while that could feel like a really profane or light hearted question, it’s really not that yeah, if people are created in the image of God, there has to be something of that, in the sense of why God would have created people like that, and the intimacy that exists within the Trinity. There are even scholars that think, and I don’t know a lot about this, but but are asking the question, you know, did Jesus have a wife? Why was Mary Magdalene, Jesus’s wife and and did Jesus therefore have sex? And did Jesus have kids, etc, etc. And many would believe that those kinds of things could have been suppressed by the views of the early church. And that’s why it didn’t get passed down, that maybe Jesus was married, you know, honestly, we don’t know. We don’t know. But what you begin to realize is, there’s definitely sexuality built into this aspect of who God is, and definitely creating humans in the image of God.


Mallory Gordon  57:05

I love that. So my, I just learned so much there when we go back and are listening to this for editing before we put it out there. I’m writing down that word, because that was fantastic. I can’t say it right now because I can barely say even.


Mickey Gordon  57:20

Yeah, I thought that was the body part. Yeah. No, no, I


Mallory Gordon  57:25

was trying, I was transfixed on the conversation. And the answer is absolutely beautiful. I learned something. I had no idea. The Holy Spirit had a feminine aspect to it. So you just you taught me something. And I thank you for that. And


Mickey Gordon  57:37

clearly, you never watched a Kevin Smith movie, because God is Alanis Morissette.


Mallory Gordon  57:40

Yeah. Okay, so I did watch dog my like 300 times back in the day. But I digress. So this one actually may be more offensive than the one you make. He just asked. So in many ways, the church and insects are separate things, right? Because there’s, there’s this massive chasm of shame. But why is people do we find ourselves calling out to God in bed?


Mickey Gordon  58:05

kind of ironic? Is it just me? Or does Mickey always come back to this question? I’ve seen this question before. I feel like it’s my default. Like, if God didn’t want me to screw Why don’t we all talk about him in bed?


Mitch (Pastor)  58:17

Or go to what? You know, I just think Could it be that we’re thanking God for the incredible experience of sex in the midst of it? Or could it be that we’re subconsciously asking for God’s approval in that moment? Oh, think about that for us. I mean, we’ve talked about shame. And and there’s so much shame that can be wrapped up so closely with sexuality. Could it be that there’s something subconsciously and I don’t think it’s conscious, always, but I think it’s more unconscious or subconscious, underneath the surface that is seeking God’s approval, rather than just using it as an expletive, you know, which, which some might think, what if it was in a special way? Just saying, God, there’s a blessing here in this thing, and I’m crying out to you for that reason. So there you go. You’ll never think about the same way again, I


Mallory Gordon  59:01

won’t I won’t turn me on my Aaron. And I’m gonna take away that shame. Next time. It’s a it’s a mindfuck or something.


Mickey Gordon  59:08

Yes, yes, it is a little bit of a mindfuck. And this is the problem with interviewing your own goddamn listeners, folks. But I will say that I do thank God every time she touches me, because Oh, she is so she’s amazing at it. But, you know, before we get to our last question for you here, Mitch, I want to address how journalism treats certain folks in the evangelical culture. I mean, when we talked I talked about medium earlier. You know, the, the implications of some of these articles are incredibly damning. Now, a lot of people don’t know it. Matter of fact, I’ve never really talked about it, but I have a personal history with Liberty University, and I have a lot of friends in that area and that have history with that university. And I can tell you It’s kind of been long rumored that there’s a pretty active swinger culture in Lynchburg, which is funny in a way. But these rumors, I mean, the opening of this article the article says, and to me this is libelous trash, I said this before, but it’s hard to keep up with the sex life of Becky, Becky falwell, one of the most startling women in all modern Christianity. Did she really see Liberty University, the evangelical stronghold as her male harem? What a crock of shit to write in in the the opening of an article. I’m stunned by it. And there’s got to be a mechanism by which that this is not okay. Now, they didn’t actually say she did anything. They just kind of suggested it, which means it’s not going to qualify as libel, but it damn sure isn’t satire.


Mallory Gordon  1:00:50

Now, was that written by a man or a woman was written by man shocker. Sorry,


Mickey Gordon  1:00:54

I know. So, this sort of thing. Why does it keep happening? why did why do people feel okay to take shots at people? She wasn’t an evangelical leader. She’s married to a real estate agent who became a president of a university. So what point is it not okay to do this to each other anymore? It’s not godly. It’s not kind


Mallory Gordon  1:01:13

Be kind to your neighbor.


Mitch (Pastor)  1:01:15

No, think about it. If you go back to the Adam and Eve story, you know, and just see what happens there. Right. What does Adam say? It’s the woman you gave me. She made me eat the fruit. And the blame gets cast on the woman. Is this any different? Right point pointing to point? You know, let’s let Vic back to the scapegoating. Again, it’s safer if someone gets becomes the scapegoat for that. And I think the system is designed to do just that, sadly, sadly,


Mickey Gordon  1:01:43

so in 2020 years since the death of Christ, we haven’t learned a damn thing is what you’re telling me?


Mallory Gordon  1:01:48

Yeah. Well, on a positive note, I can say God in bed.


Mickey Gordon  1:01:55

Yes, you can. You can thank him for this penis. She’s going back. And all the others.


Mallory Gordon  1:02:02

Well, we’re gonna have to wrap this up soon. But I know we have one more question for you. So I’m going to take this one. We’ve talked about this before, but I think people need to hear it. Can you be sexually positive, adventurous, consensually, non monogamous and still love God still have a relationship with God believe in him and live true to his intent? I think that’s really important to talk about before we wrap this up?


Mitch (Pastor)  1:02:24

It is great question. Thank you for asking that. There’s some verses in First Corinthians that says, All things are lawful. But not all things are beneficial. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be dominated by anything. Now lawful, could just be translated permissible there. And beneficial is is something that is to the advantage of the common good. So in other words, if we were to translate that is like, don’t do this for selfish reasons, or in a way that hurts or takes advantage of someone else. That would be the most unloving thing that you could do. But if we, if we turn that question around, instead of, you know, can you still love God? What about if we asked it this way? Can you still be loved by God? Because I think if you understand God’s love for you, that’s way more powerful than any of our human ability to love God. And I think it has to start there. Because some people often when you turn your back on this or you leave the church or you’ve been hurt by it, or you’re questioning your own reality, your own behaviors, you’re wondering, what does God think of me? Does God love me? And the answer is an unequivocal Yes, God loves you. That’s transforming and that’ll help deal with the shame we talked about earlier. So, but But to answer your question, specifically, can you love God? Yes, of course. Can you believe in God? Yes. Can you live true to God’s intent? Definitely, yes. But that’s also up to each one of us to discern what that intent might look like. Honestly, what you guys, what popped into my mind is, is back in Edo, and when it’s one or two in the morning, and most people have pursued what they wanted to do that evening, but Mickey’s watching, are walking around the beach or resort kind of looking for women who have passed out and need to be brought to their rooms. I think that’s God’s intent. There’s, there’s a goodness in that. That is what we’re talking about. That’s what this is all about. Or when so many relationships are rather selfishly centered on one partner trying to get their own needs met, but you’re the type of partner who has enough compersion to allow your partner to find an experience of love, kindness, fun that truly nurtures them. I think that’s God’s intent. So it’s the way you think about this and the way you understand God and the way God understands you. Dude,


Mickey Gordon  1:04:55

I think that that is probably one of the most powerful version have anything like that I’ve ever heard. And, you know, that’s that thing you said about me. I, I, I’m speechless. I mean, it’s not something I tell a lot of people, you’re one of the few people that notice that I do that. So that’s a, you know, it’s my way of looking out for for our people. I mean, I don’t have a flock the way you do. But I think that anybody that’s at that resort with us knows that I look out for all of them. So exactly, you know, much like Cindy had to do. Mallory had to dip out for a work call. So I’m going to bring this to a wrap with you, my friend. I do want you to know, though, that the love that you guys share for everybody, and the love that you shared with everybody here today, I can feel it from 3000 miles away, you guys are amazing. And I know that this was a heavy subject, guys. But it was one that needs to happen, because it’s in the news cycle right now. And you need to know that there are people out there that do live in God’s intent, and they do love God. And they also are comfortable in their own skin as being sexual beings because you are made in God’s image. And you are not perfect, but neither was he. So, Mitch, thank you very much. Do me a favor, can you tell folks where to find you because today, much like you didn’t have last time, you have an email address where our listeners can get ahold of you and ask their own questions.


Mitch (Pastor)  1:06:17

Yeah, we do. And feel free to put that in the show notes and stuff because I can never remember exactly what it is. Cuz it’s kind of long. So I want to say it’s seventh dimension [email protected]. We you can get a hold of either me or Cindy, if you want to email us directly there. But Mikio put it in the show notes that you’ve got that exact email address. And if you want to email us any questions or talk about any of this, or I mean, we do coaching with people, both of us do, to kind of help them walk through all kinds of life’s issues. We’d love to connect with you that way.


Mickey Gordon  1:06:48

And I would love for people to connect with you that way, because I come away from every conversation we have, even the ones floating in the ocean, feeling better about who I am as a human being, which is pretty awesome. So I’m going to do something here that I never do on the show, Mitch, you’re ready for this. I’m gonna tell people have to find us. And this is normally Mallory’s job, but she bailed on me. So, ladies and gentlemen, this has been a lot of fun. It’s been enlightening for me, and I loved every second of it. If you’re looking for more casual swing or you’re looking to reach out to us, you can do that anywhere. You love podcasts. We’re all over the place. If you’re listening to this, you found it somewhere. But keep in mind we’re also on all the dating sites that’s STC SLS Cassidy double date nation quiver. We’re on kik, we’re on Facebook, we’re all over the place, even Instagram. You can also leave us a review on iTunes. We love reviews. As a matter of fact, I get off to him in the closet alone by myself. And of course, you can reach out to us directly at podcast at casual swinger calm. This has been a blast having Mitch on the show and talking a little bit about our relationship with God This episode’s been called Heaven forbid. Ladies and gentlemen, you’ve been listening to casual swingers.



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