Shame on you! – Love, God

Recent Podcast

Casual Swinger Recommends

Hearing impaired? This podcast is transcribed for your convenience.

Edit Content


Shame On You, Love God – Swinging & Religion with Lifestyle …

Thu, 9/2 10:24AM • 1:06:20


people, shame, spiritual, lifestyle, swinger, casual, spirituality, religion, christmas, sex, church, beach, experience, cindy, hito, pastors, rascals, day, god, couple


Cindy (Pastor), Mitch (Pastor), Mickey Gordon, Mallory Gordon


Mallory Gordon  00:09

Welcome to casual swinger. If you’re under 18, the following podcast is not appropriate for you. The subject and language are for mature audiences only. If you’re not mature in nature, just make sure you’re old enough to vote. We don’t take ourselves seriously, ever. No guarantees given regarding the accuracy that you can use or statements made on this podcast or website or a blog. It’s all in fun, folks. This isn’t Dr. Phil. Now consider yourself the listener properly advised. Welcome back everybody to casual swinger. I’m one of your hosts Mallory. I’m the other guy. Hey, other guys,


Mickey Gordon  00:52

how you doing? This is Mickey,


Mallory Gordon  00:53

you’re pretty cute.


Mickey Gordon  00:56

Want to do some stuff later? I can think of a few things. It’s up


Mallory Gordon  00:59

my straw again.


Mickey Gordon  01:00

I’ll wear a Santa hat. That’s the only hat I’m wearing. Just saying I’m going in raw. Oh, God.


Mallory Gordon  01:09

she sued.


Mickey Gordon  01:10

So what’s up everybody? It’s Christmas time. This isn’t one episode a year where I get to put the jingle a Christmas music in it, which is kind of cute. You know, it’s festive. But, you know, we get to do things like dirty stockings.


Mallory Gordon  01:23

I do love dirty stockings.


Mickey Gordon  01:25

Yeah, well, you wear stockings for me.


Mallory Gordon  01:28

Like my thigh. Don’t ever miss time. Okay.


Mickey Gordon  01:33

But you know, we’re gonna talk about Christmas, and maybe a little shame to go with all the religion behind Christmas and


Mallory Gordon  01:39

how that got like, serious real fast.



Did I know,


Mickey Gordon  01:42

right? Yeah, this is the shame episode, which kind of you know, I don’t know that it really plays with Christmas time and dirty stockings. But we really didn’t want this to be one big ad for casual toys. So we want to talk a little bit about religion and spirituality because we met a couple of cool ass people. In Jamaica,


Mallory Gordon  01:58

we did. so impactful, coming out of that conversation with both of them because it was very enlightening for me. Something I’ve come across in the lifestyle especially, but also growing up is that spirituality and sexuality were very siloed and segregated


Mickey Gordon  02:13

in my universe. I mean, I grew up Southern Baptist. So I mean, sexuality was something that was behind closed doors. I mean, my grandparents slept in separate beds.


Mallory Gordon  02:20

Was it in mind? Yes, exactly.


Mickey Gordon  02:22

It was just like, I mean, where did we all come from? If they’re never in the same bed, and when they are, she just yells at him for scratching his balls. scritch scritch scratch? You know, I think as far as Christmas time goes, you know, shame in Christmas don’t really go together unless you talk about your Amazon. Oh, my God. Woman.


Mallory Gordon  02:40

Yeah, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. We did. We did order a lot this year. Like lots of little things. So it’s like we did you? Well, I mean, your names in the credit card too. So but I think there was a tie in there. I mean, you know, Christmas for many people was a Christian holiday. Right? So where religion comes into play there? And then the time was shame. I mean, I think we made the connection. Okay,


Mickey Gordon  03:03

if we did do and these lifestyle friendly pastors that we met had so many great things to say about finding spirituality and everything. And we thought that this would just be a great time to roll this out for you guys. So thanks. So I agree. You know, we’re not the experts on religion, spiritual swingers, Adam and Eve, probably the experts on spirituality in the lifestyle, which is why we went out and found two people that actually are their pastors, what’s


Mallory Gordon  03:26

great is they actually found us and they were willing to have that conversation. And we had many conversations throughout the week, where we’re able to spend time with them. But this one, I feel very fortunate to be able to share with our listeners.


Mickey Gordon  03:39

Yeah, you kind of dropped that one on me. You’re like, hey, by the way, I found two pastors floating in the ocean.


Mallory Gordon  03:43

And you know what, in my mind, I really should not be so surprised when we run across, you know, different walks of life as we you know, have our own adventures. But this one really struck me and they were so kind so insightful. And so open to any, you know, dialogue that we had, whether it was an agreement or disagreement.


Mickey Gordon  04:03

Yeah, I love that conversation. But before we get into that, because we have a lot of conversation to have to share our thoughts on it before we get into the interview. But let’s talk about where the hell we just got back from because that was so much fun.


Mallory Gordon  04:14

That was such a blast. We spent a long ish weekend in Key West with our great friends of Rachel’s rascals. We had eat December birthdays in this crew how nuts is that?


Mickey Gordon  04:25

I’m still wearing the temporary tattoos those fuckers


Mallory Gordon  04:28

No, I know I think we we got we got tricked here. We’re like branded for life.


Mickey Gordon  04:32

Right? temporary, my ass.


Mallory Gordon  04:34

I’m gonna be part of the birthday squad. Well, at least my right to it is her like


Mickey Gordon  04:38

hate boobs. Yeah, I have to look at this thing for like six months until it comes off. Oh, stop it. You know, it was so much fun. So we had a really small subsection of the rascals with us and we all rented a house and then we rented a bed and breakfast next door to the house pretty much which is where Mallory and I stayed with the squeakiest fucking bedding us


Mallory Gordon  04:56

dude. And like everyone knew when we were having sex, they had to have like, People walking back so we are an outside room that had the sidewalk on one block down from Duvall. So there was some traffic there so sorry.


Mickey Gordon  05:08

Oh, you’d look sorry to the pedestrians. So we buy our room a little morning sex, and it was great. The bed is just howling and Mallory’s howling and it’s, we’re having a lot of fun. And, you know, we finished up and she’s like, you know, I think there’s one more in the chamber. So I was like, well, cool, you work on that. I’ll go get you some breakfast because it’s gonna get some bacon. And I go over and I open the door and it swings wide open, because you know, we were new to this place. We didn’t realize how wide these doors open and they’re right outside our room is a table with an elderly couple sitting at it. And there’s Mallory just a master of eight and I didn’t


Mallory Gordon  05:41

know anyone was outside. They were very quiet and I was totally face down ass up getting at it. And


Mickey Gordon  05:48

I full of your cash and prizes. Whatever it really did. How’s my pet whole? I think he thought it was fantastic. It made his day. But that was a hell of a lot of fun. I mean, I will tell you this though, I did learn a lesson and I always kind of heard stories about how long Florida is. Live in Orlando. It was seven and a half hours to get to Key West


Mallory Gordon  06:10

Side. And I when you said you wanted to drive I was like, Okay, okay, I love car rides with you. That’s fine. We can spend some time together and like, yeah, sure, sure


Mickey Gordon  06:19

we can drive to Cuba. Yeah, sounds like a great plan.


Mallory Gordon  06:22

What was so cute is we got to the keys. You’re like yes and no time we’ll be in Key West. I was like, Dude, it’s at the end. You serve like two two and a half hours. Traffic the way at the end. And you know what is on that? two lane road? For the most part? It’s


Mickey Gordon  06:35

a two lane road. There’s a couple little spaces where you can race around people. But there’s a lot of goddamn old people driving


Mallory Gordon  06:40

like old people also like enormous iguanas. Oh, yeah, we


Mickey Gordon  06:43

did pass like Godzilla was cousin and orange Guana. That was the size of a small dog.


Mallory Gordon  06:48

So huge mess a dinosaur.


Mickey Gordon  06:51

But we did spend 16 hours in the truck to spend 36 hours with our friends. And I think that was totally worth it.


Mallory Gordon  06:56

Absolutely. It was a it was a wonderful time. We packed a lot of memories into that short period.


Mickey Gordon  07:00

Just memories I’d like to do without like the naked drag show. I


Mallory Gordon  07:03

could tell that’s one of my favorites. Of course, one of our rascals wouldn’t get up there. So they have like the striptease competition. And out of the five guys that were up there. Three of them are rascals. So I was super proud to be part of the group. Like those are our friends. Oh, but we


Mickey Gordon  07:16

all hold it to I did. I said it because I saw Dave get up there. And I’m like, all swinging dick. It’s coming. And bam.


Mallory Gordon  07:23

Yeah, yeah. Great. Yeah. We knew it was coming. Again, super proud of him. Well, and the drag queens face was priceless. Like, Oh, no, you didn’t honey.


Mickey Gordon  07:33

You know, they didn’t stop playing games. We left because everybody was there. Everybody went home today. Yeah, so we left yesterday.


Mallory Gordon  07:38

Yeah, we had to work today.


Mickey Gordon  07:40

And you know, all weekend long. We were playing this game we called Where’s Johnny?


Mallory Gordon  07:44

Oh my gosh. Oh, so funny. He just said like, we got a message what yesterday? And they were like hey found him he was at CBS Believe it or not, or wherever the hell he ended up and I’m like, find a dog. Exactly. Find


Mickey Gordon  07:58

the damn dog your dog on? Yeah, we’re gonna catch up with them. I think probably in November unless we see them before that for a naked truth episode because they live in the heart of Manhattan. And we’re gonna talk about what it means to be a lifestyle or in the big cities. So


Mallory Gordon  08:12

a great I think I’m gonna put my foot down and we’re gonna we’re gonna make a trip to New York. Okay, yeah.


Mickey Gordon  08:18

Pretty much so we’re gonna go up there and we’re gonna do that. It’s gonna be a lot of fun. But we went to Key West at Christmas and I gotta tell you guys if you ever get the chance, go down there because it’s the neatest thing you’re in 80 degree weather. You’re in shorts and a T shirt and everything’s decorated for Christmas. It makes no sense what so it’s amazing


Mallory Gordon  08:34

I thoroughly enjoyed it. I mean, obviously fantasy Fest in October is a great time to get in there if you’re looking for a big party that does give me like a it does remind me a little bit of Bourbon Street like as far as the availability of food and drink and naked people naked people and activities so I mean absolutely do it if you get the opportunity to


Mickey Gordon  08:52

so it also I’m


Mallory Gordon  08:54

still kind of wondering if we had any like news outlets pick up any of our crew for like a Florida man segment I put a tickler on my Google right yeah, there’s


Mickey Gordon  09:03

it’s just one giant got bitten the face by a dog that would definitely would have made cuz he kept getting down and getting in their grills like I stopped doing it. I love dogs. Chihuahua tried to choose arm. Anyway, so let’s get on without you know, before we go just talk about keywest old time because we do want to get into the shame. Let’s get into the crappy ad section.


Mallory Gordon  09:25

Call on it. For crying out loud.


Mickey Gordon  09:29

I don’t know what else to call it. But hey, jingle bells, Jingle Bells it’s Christmas around the corner and if you guys have not picked up anything for your favorite person, you still have a little bit of time to do from casual toys.


Mallory Gordon  09:41

Oh yes casual toys. I was gonna say hi massager.


Mickey Gordon  09:47

Well, I can’t see I have no control over the shipping and high massager but I do have some control over the shipping and casual toys. Okay, fair enough. And so if you guys still want to get an order in for casual toys, make sure that you use the code s d you that’s our friends kaiten Darrell from Singapore who are still celebrating Christmas wave there in the heat of Singapore. And she did it by putting out a newsletter that had all kinds of cool gifts that she loves a Christmas time. So she put in the flashlight quick shot.


Mallory Gordon  10:17

Yeah, that’s been very popular.


Mickey Gordon  10:18

So that girl sold more of those, huh? Like, she sold us out of them. We actually sold out and got more in


Mallory Gordon  10:24

Yep, we sure did.


Mickey Gordon  10:25

So that thing is super popular. Apparently. It’s really popular for using while you give a blowjob. Not that we would know because we sell them all before I get to use one. I


Mallory Gordon  10:32

don’t know what to tell you. You own the star diamond order one.


Mickey Gordon  10:35

So anyway, go check out casual toys and pick up some cool stuff. Check out Kate’s newsletter, if you’re not a part of her newsletter, sign up and get that newsletter and you’ll get that code and some of her favorite toys. Remember that code is S. D. You awesome. Also they go to desire to they have a desire code that we’re going to put in the notes.


Mallory Gordon  10:52

Yeah, so going to desire they actually have an affiliate link, right? So you can book any time that’s convenient for you. And you also get a little bonus, don’t you?


Mickey Gordon  11:02

You do get a $50 gift certificate to cash gold toys. Boom.


Mallory Gordon  11:07

See how I made that segue?


Mickey Gordon  11:09

I like how you did that? You know and something else. I just talked to Steve from high massager today as well. I hadn’t talked to him in a while and they’re doing really well. So they’re actually rolling out a new website and they’re separating the therapeutic sales for high massager from the sexual sales of high massage.


Mallory Gordon  11:23

That’s interesting.


Mickey Gordon  11:25

Yeah, I think that’s really neat. So there’s going to be high massage calm, which will be more sexual and women and couples, which would be more for therapy. You know, the high massage is one of Mallory’s favorite toys.


Mallory Gordon  11:33

And absolutely is that thing is very impressive. I can go on and on about it. But it’s so unique compared to the other, you know, toys that are out there of its creed. I can see how it’s used for therapy. I actually did use it therapeutically. Last month during my monthly Sorry, I know gross, but it helped a lot. But it’s also an amazing


Mickey Gordon  11:56

what’s the thing it’s it’s therapeutic and the side effect is monsters orgasm. So in talking to Steve today, it looks like we are going to be able to carry that on casual toys calm so we’re gonna


Mallory Gordon  12:05

can’t wait to release that.


Mickey Gordon  12:07

But in the meantime, you can buy it on women and and remember, it’s awesome. Mallory loves it. And you guys get a $50 discount if you use the code casual swingers that don’t forget casual swingers your code for women and couples calm?


Mallory Gordon  12:19

I do I do. So can we fast forward to January.


Mickey Gordon  12:24

Oh, that’s that’s like 18 days from now it is you know how many podcasts are coming down? It’s crazy Belen? It’s like It’s like, light, right? Because was it our naughty escapades? euphoria Chronicles swinging down under casual swinger. And well of course, you know, because they live in Orlando to mix knots.


Mallory Gordon  12:42



Mickey Gordon  12:44

That’s Korean. Brenda, so we’re gonna have like five podcasts at secrets Friday and Saturday. That’s January 3, and fourth, fourth and fifth,


Mallory Gordon  12:53

I believe celebrated afternoon


Mickey Gordon  12:54

third and fourth. If you guys have ever been to a lifestyle club on New Year’s, it’s craziness.


Mallory Gordon  13:01

It is it’s insane. And it’s expensive. Well, it’s a great party but it does it does present its own challenges and we’ve done Year’s Eve parties and a lifestyle now I think out of the almost 14 years we’ve done probably 10 or 11 New Year’s Eve parties that lifestyle folks, we’ve had some good time we’ve had some great times I think this year we’re taking it off because we wanted to make Yeah, we wanted to hang out with our folks there you know that following weekend and we really couldn’t do both issues.


Mickey Gordon  13:27

Well and if I was gonna party somewhere in in the lifestyle in Central Florida, it would absolutely be secrets so don’t get me wrong here. But if it doesn’t appeal to you, if you’ve got the kids you can’t break away you want to do something


Mallory Gordon  13:38

or you just need to wait to the weekend because work whatever Yeah,


Mickey Gordon  13:41

then this is going to be an epic event. So we’re actually working on we’ve actually got a call as soon as we’re done recording we’re gonna catch up with Kate and we’re gonna sit down and figure out what some of these games we’re gonna do are but we’ve got games coming your way events, hanging out with some of the coolest podcasters around and casual swinger because I don’t know they fall in the same well


Mallory Gordon  13:58

and don’t forget doubletake nation oh my god yeah,


Mickey Gordon  14:01

well they don’t often but this is so we’re calling this event double your pleasure and why? Because it’s sponsored by double date nation.


Mallory Gordon  14:08



Mickey Gordon  14:09

Let’s talk about why


Mallory Gordon  14:10

they have a hot new platform super sexy easy to use. Not to mention David Andy are amazing human beings.


Mickey Gordon  14:17

Yeah, they’re super cool so I can’t wait to hang out with those guys and kind of grow our community on dad on double date nation Yeah, yeah, it’s called a double dad nation and so that just sounds wrong.


Mallory Gordon  14:26

It’s that sounds kinky little we’re gonna back that up, put a pin in it talk about it later in private. If you guys are interested, check out w nation and use code was casual swinger or just casual. Okay, use code casual to get some free time to try it out.


Mickey Gordon  14:41

So all that cool stuff going on. We’ve got one more big thing we are two more big things we need to throw your way. The first of which is podcast a Palooza it is over 60% sold out you know if you don’t know what FOMO is you will if you miss this mofo


Mallory Gordon  14:56

Yeah, it’s fear of missing out. We all have it. Don’t lie don’t don’t try to like deplete that part of your ego right we all


Mickey Gordon  15:05

got it so you think that list that for like re call it P calculate is something you want to see who’s coming to peak app. Right average swingers is gonna be there we got to think swinger diaries sex uninterrupted us swinging down under monogamous marriage, sapphic


Mallory Gordon  15:19

Oh, you’re looking at me. I was like, I don’t know. Let me go look at my notes again. My brain is fried. Because so


Mickey Gordon  15:25

many great people come in and made a podcast or Palooza. So check out our show notes. And make sure you book because if you haven’t booked soon, my guess is as soon as these holidays are over, it’s going to happen. Don’t miss it. Yeah,


Mallory Gordon  15:37

everyone’s gonna finish planning, you know, their vacations, long weekends, so on and so forth. So I encourage you guys to get in there early. So the last bit say you came into a few extra bucks after you know, your big Christmas bonus, your jelly of the Month Club voucher, whatever it may be. February, is right around the corner here. And we still have a couple of rooms left for our rascals trip.


Mickey Gordon  15:59

We do and we’re hosting in February. That’s gonna be a lot of fun. And don’t forget, we’ve got our first lifestyle only trip to Hito that we’re hosting in June. That’s right in June. So when like we said, your crotch goblins are out of school, you can send them to grandma’s you can come hang out with us at Hito. And that’s gonna be with the folks from iOS connections and dirty perv week,


Mallory Gordon  16:20

who? Gosh, it’s gonna be a wonderful 2020 I’m so looking forward to it. So with any of this travel information we just gave you guys you have questions hit us up at podcast that casual or go to casual and click travel with us and you can hit us up there.


Mickey Gordon  16:35

That’s right. And we were just answering some folks earlier today about you, dad. Alright, so before we get on with the rest of the show, what do you what are your thoughts Malory on spirituality? And do you think that you’re a spiritual person and a swingers?


Mallory Gordon  16:49

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I know, I’m a spiritual person and a swinger. But I’ve always been hesitant to call myself a religious person. Because I guess subconsciously, and this is before we had this conversation with the pastor’s before, I always thought it was unacceptable for me to have both and and to me, that made a lot of sense, because I think that’s kind of the societal norm. What about you?


Mickey Gordon  17:12

Well, I’m a raging atheist. So I don’t believe in any, you know, any of that stuff.


Mallory Gordon  17:18

So I don’t have any spirituality is more than Christianity. It’s way more than that, and encompasses a lot of things.


Mickey Gordon  17:24

It’s the I think that’s what did me wrong, because growing up in a religious household, and then, you know, getting into theology in college and trying to figure out what all this stuff meant, all I really came to terms with is that no one agrees with each other. And that, but that everything that I felt, I mean, on almost every religion out there was wrong. Like every single thing that I was turned on by or that I thought somebody was telling me that was not okay, and that I had to do it some other way in order to fulfill the tenets of whatever their religion was, that was never cool.


Mallory Gordon  17:54

Was that only related to sex, though? Or was it kind of across the board for you? Because in a lot of ways I like the ideals or the moral compass is that a lot of different religions are face skin. You know, there’s, there’s some in there that that really hold value to me, like, be kind to your neighbor. You know what I mean? Like, just be a good person? Well, I think swingers tend to be a little more spiritual.


Mickey Gordon  18:16

Okay, well, I just think swingers love thy neighbor.


Mallory Gordon  18:19

But yeah, they they neighbor’s wife,


Mickey Gordon  18:21

right. covet thy neighbor’s wife regularly. No. Well, alright. So you know, for me, it definitely is more about sex than it is. I actually had a friend once who was hyper Christian. And she always said, I was the best Christian she knew. And because even though I didn’t step foot in a church, I’m actually not allowed to step foot in a few churches for a couple of reasons. But in this particular case, she just said that I literally fulfilled everything that they asked each other to do with the exception of loving God. And And my answer to that is always which one, because there’s so many gods out there, depending on what you what you study, but what I did find, through all of my studies, is that love is the prevailing theme. Mm hmm. And, and every religion, even the ones that have been demonized, bastardized or twisted for man’s own end. And I think, for me as a lifestyler, you know, religion doesn’t have anything to do with it. But love has everything to do with it looking out for each other caring for each other being kind to each other.


Mallory Gordon  19:20

First, yeah,


Mickey Gordon  19:21

all these things resonate to me.


Mallory Gordon  19:23

very insightful. Yeah,


Mickey Gordon  19:25

you know what, that’s how I roll insights by Mickey can swinger.


Mallory Gordon  19:29

So yeah, for me, this conversation with Mitch and Cindy is going to hold a special place in my heart for a very long time, along with many of the conversations we’ve had with them. We don’t have it currently, but they are going to give us an email address or website for people to contact them with questions and just some open dialogue around the concept of being sexual and spiritual. Absolutely. And


Mickey Gordon  19:53

you know, when that happens, we’ll go back and put that in the show notes. But I’ll also throw that out on Twitter and Instagram too, so people can find them because I think They’re a great resource. And when you get to hear Mitch talk, wow.


Mallory Gordon  20:03

Yeah. Well, both of them both Mitch and Cindy, I was so impressed with them they currently work in. I hate to say it, but the vanilla side of this counseling and what do they call it again?


Mickey Gordon  20:14

Honestly, I don’t remember either. I just know, their pastors, the


Mallory Gordon  20:18

pastors, and they do a lot of group work and guidance, because one of the stories that Cindy was or pieces that Cindy gave us, and the audio we picked up was one of the things that could happen in religion, because being sexual and physically affectionate is so frowned upon. What if you’re in your mid 30s? or early 40s? Before you get married? Do you know how to be physically affectionate with somebody else? Have you missed your prime years when you’re learning that? Because I mean, the societal norms are what you get married in your 20s have kids before 30 or around 30? Now like, it’s still very like structure two and a half kids picket fence dog? What if that’s not your schedule? But what if that’s not what God had in store for you? What if you’re 38? Yeah, well, and they’re dealing with some of the shameful wall the shame as well, but some of the psychological and emotional factors that come in


Mickey Gordon  21:14

Yeah, well and think about that, if you go that long, depriving yourself of that sort of affection and that sort of attention that does lead to shame and then to guilt. And once you have guilt, I mean, we can go All Star Wars here and that leads to anger and that leads to regret and that leads to things that are just


Mallory Gordon  21:29

spiritual toxic. Oh, yeah. Hey,


Mickey Gordon  21:32

sorry. So what I’m a force practitioner What do you want to use the force?


Mallory Gordon  21:37

Oh, it just came


Mickey Gordon  21:43

Alright guys, we’re gonna get into this interview with Mitch and Cindy who are the lifestyle positive pastors. We’re not going to do a segment today The reason because this is going to run a little long and it’s going to run that full hour so we want to give you guys the opportunity to hear what they had to say. And we want to wish you all a Merry Christmas and we will be back with you probably just before New Year’s yes then Happy Hanukkah


Mallory Gordon  22:06

Hanukkah is over Christmas this year.


Mickey Gordon  22:08

Oh it is that’s right yeah, yeah Happy Holidays right i mean i it’s funny I’m sitting here saying I’m not a Christian but um we should everybody Merry Christmas. What I wish you is a great time and happiness with the people you care about the most


Mallory Gordon  22:19

Yes. Merry Christmas everyone.


Mickey Gordon  22:22

All right, I need Tim you want to tell everybody where to find us so we can jump into this interview.


Mallory Gordon  22:27

All right, our peoples we are casual swinger everywhere that is Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, STC SLS double date, nation, quiver and Cassidy. If you want to reach out to us podcast at casual swinger comm is our email you can find us at casual swingers calm.


Mickey Gordon  22:44

Alright, folks, get ready. We got a great interview coming your way you’re listening to casual swinger. Hey, everybody, welcome back to casual swinger. My name is making the now Mallory. So we’re sitting here at hedonism, two with Mitch and Cindy, we found these guys actually, I think they might have found us on the beach kind of other in the water. They did, literally stumbled across each other. So we decided to come up here to the piano bar and sit down with these folks, because they had one of the most unique stories. I think we found a grade here this week. And it really felt like it’s something that needed to be an entire show. And that’s spirituality, in the lifestyle and around the lifestyle and really defining the word lifestyle is who we are and how we live and how we interact with other people. Somebody asked me just the other day, you know, how much of your time in the lifestyle is spent having sex I said maybe 2%. Most of it’s the friendships, the relationships, the time we spend the last we have. And then Mitch and Cindy as pastors, ironically enough, that’s right. We’re sitting here folks with two pastors who are lifestyle friendly. And I thought, Wow, that’s so cool, right? Because you guys live in a very spiritual existence. So do us a favor. Tell us a little bit about yourselves. You guys are from the west coast. Tell us how spirituality has kind of led you to this place. I mean, how in the world? or How in the hell did you end up at Hito? When did you come to Hito the first time and what kind of spiritual experiences that been for


Mitch (Pastor)  24:33

you? Yeah, great. Thanks Mickey. Mallory. It’s been so good to meet you guys, by the way, and hang out and just have fun conversations together as well. Yeah, we first came to this place back in 1989. I think it was so many decades ago. And it was a very different place then. But we realized there was something different. There was a level of people able to have fun together and able to let go and able to find freedom and because we are in evolved in such religious environments, I think we probably realize, in a lot of religious environments, people aren’t having fun. And something’s wrong with that. Because fun is very spiritual joy is very spiritual, right? churches often talk about joy, or about happiness or finding fulfillment in life. But you look around and it’s like, well, you should tell your face, if you’re gonna have, you know, you’re not having a lot of fun, you’re not having a lot of joy. So for us, yeah, it began being able to connect as a married couple, to be able to bring the joy we found with each other back to the relationships and people that we knew. And the one thing we’ve always noticed is that there was something different. In our experience, when we could come to a place like this, that helped us deal with shame. There was one word it would probably be shame that many people live with, right. And religion is highly involved with shame. But often it’s giving people more shame, rather than helping them take the shame away that was never meant to be in their lives in the first place. And we think that’s an issue. So for us, it’s been, I think, decades of being married, we’re in our fourth decade now and being married third decade of being married, whatever, it’s been over 30 years. And there’s something that gets embedded that really does damage. When we were getting married. We were counseled by a pastor that was going to do our own wedding. And he said, If you guys screw up, which means if you screwed, or you had to do that, maybe if you touched if you did anything, I’m not going to do your wedding. And I realized at that point, he embedded shame in us that was being embedded in tons of other people.


Mallory Gordon  26:37

Instead of celebrating, embracing and encouraging. Yeah,


Mitch (Pastor)  26:40

exactly. Yeah. Yeah. There was no sense of joy in the fact that God created sex, that God created a couple to come together that God created that as a good thing to bond you together. I mean, even the Bible says Be fruitful and multiply. That’s really hard to do without sex. You know, great. Yeah. No, no dis to in vitro fertilization and stuff you need to do for those folks that have that issue. But yeah, it would be fruitful and multiply is I think, like the first command in the Bible. Fair. handjobs. Don’t get that done. No. So anyway, yeah, shame. And we realized by being around an environment like this, and being around it with fun people like you guys, it really helps take rid yourself of that shame, because that shame affects many other areas of your life. And it impacts the way you’re able to be a friend, or a parent, or the kind of shame you pass on to your own children, and the damage it does in them. So we’ve been working on this stuff for a long time, first in us, and then with the hope of sharing it with others.


Cindy (Pastor)  27:45

Yeah, it started for us with nudity and body shame. There’s so much body shame in culture, we don’t look like the Victoria’s Secret models we don’t look like


Mallory Gordon  27:55

or whatever picture ask.


Cindy (Pastor)  27:57

Yeah, magazine cover is Poppy. And so we I’ve even heard some people say they won’t even look at themselves in the mirror. Wow, that’s a really sad statement. And so the nude beach actually has helped us deal with those issues within us. And it’s a slow process things don’t happen overnight necessary. And so for me and us, it was just a process of Okay, it feels it’s okay to be nude in front of other people actually takes down barriers a brand you get to know people, because you’re not covering up with makeup or clothes or, you know, your jewelry is your anklet, you know, it’s just, it’s was helpful for us to have that opportunity to be naked in front of other people if severability is down and you have a commonality right away exact friends so badly, because you have that commonality right off the bat, the


Mallory Gordon  28:47

great equalizer. Yeah. And everyone’s got their mask off.


Mickey Gordon  28:50

I love how women always say that nudity sort of read equalizer, you’ve never had a good dude with a huge pain of standing


Mitch (Pastor)  28:57

equal about that. You’re like, really, all men are created equal my ass. One of our favorite stories, she says I always blame her. But way back in the day, we were really young, and we’d go to the beach on our day off. And it was a really secluded beach when nobody was there. And we’re coming home one day and she goes, there’s nobody there. I think I could take my top off. Right. And I could tan topless. And I’m like, that’s a great idea. Let’s go back. So we went back next weekend. Yeah, that’s my I started it. She did. So she took her top off. And that’s where it started. And it was great. And it was just a fun experience. And it started there. There was something about no shame being in the sun. But then one day, it got even a little bit more fun. And she always said she had been tanning topless that day. But she took her phone off. And then she reached into our beach bag and pulled out a thing of like Hawaiian Tropic oil. And I’m like, I don’t know where this is going but it looks to be a really good side. She reaches down she pulls my trunks off and she goes rubs the oil all over me? Wow. And yeah, and so she oiled me up really good instincts. Yeah, cuz I asked, Where did that come from? Where did you learn that? She’s like, No, no, this instinct, I guess she gets me oiled up and she rides me on the beach, in this gorgeous beach with the waves breaking. And not only do I love this girl, but I realized, you know, this is where shame goes away. And here’s a spiritual part of it, you’re not only bonding as a couple, but creation, you’re in this beautiful spot of creation around you. The sun feels amazing. The sand is just fun. The waves and the beach is amazing. So that was decades ago, and we still look back and go, that was a hugely spiritual experience. That was a sexual spiritual experience. And we look back and go, that was amazing. You know, the first time we came here, way back, and you know, the day that we already shared here at Hito, there was just a nude beach. And that was it. There’s no new pool, you couldn’t do anything. That’s right, it was more like camping. It was it was completely different. But we took a horseback ride over to bloody Bay, and with a group of people. And as we were on the horseback ride, we’re going down and some Jamaican couple fucking against a horse. And we’re like, this is a nice beach, we’re coming back to this. So after the horseback ride, I think was the next day, right, we got our gear, we walked over to bloody Bay. At that point, there’s no hotels on it, it was just this gorgeous stretch of beach. And that was the first Caribbean beach we ever funded on. As we came, he was there and nobody was there. We could have hung out just all day in this beautiful spot. So it’s these little instances. And we always say couples don’t look for those things enough. Sometimes. You know, and for us, I feel maybe it’s real basic for many of your listeners, you know, I like to think of it’s beautiful because it’s connecting with creation. Yeah. And it’s getting you to a place to say how do you deal with shame? How do you connect with a partner, a spouse and have so much fun together? And do it in the most beautiful place imaginable?


Mallory Gordon  32:06

Yeah, I feel my most spiritual when I’m connecting with nature, honestly.


Mickey Gordon  32:10

Yeah. So I mean, if our listeners, you’re probably picking up a theme of shame that we have as religious people, or if you’re raised religious, whether it’s Catholic, or Protestant or whatever, right. And Christianity always has this element of shame, or that religion has to be a punitive measure if you don’t somehow conform to the tenets of that religion. So as pastors, do you find that lifestyle, people feel shame about having attraction to others outside of their marriage, when they’re told So specifically, to only value the person that they’re married to? And only see them in that light, and have them in that light and feel that connection with those people? Is it difficult for people in the lifestyle to come to terms with their sexuality because of that shame?


Mitch (Pastor)  32:57

I think it is. And I would just go even broader and say, it’s difficult for everybody to deal with shame, we just deal with a different, some of us compensate for it differently. Some of us hide it, some of us escape from it, some of us anesthetize it with alcohol, drugs, or whatever, because we don’t want to feel it. And often what people don’t realize is that the root of many other issues is shame. It’s a shame based living in a shame based culture. And many of your listeners probably came from churches and environments that helped promote that shame, right. And so it’s deeply embedded in there somewhere. And I think sometimes even if we look like we’re not over it, there are ways that shame manifests itself in our lives that come out in other ways. It’s like, it’s like the whack a mole game.


Mallory Gordon  33:43

Yeah. And if I do a word association, I think denial and repression kind of go hand in hand, if we’re talking about shame, which does a lot of damage, especially when you’re talking over the course of your life.


Mitch (Pastor)  33:54

Yeah, Yeah, it does. And the hard part is so someone, whether they’re in the lifestyle, or wherever they are, they go to want to find affirmation validation in something, who do you talk to for that? Right? If they go to their church? If they go to their church, chances are they’re not going to get a very sex positive hearing. They’re in the counseling of that, which is really sad.


Mallory Gordon  34:19

It is because it’s Yeah, yeah, sex is a part of every human being. It’s a part of everything.


Mitch (Pastor)  34:23

So you have to have a place to talk about it. So I really think that Yeah, shame is there in everyone. It just depends how it manifests itself. Shame is not good. It’s never healthy. God doesn’t want us to live in that shame. And many people would feel like shame came, shame has nothing to do with God. And so for those listeners that kind of look at their church experience, that God experience and think that God created shame. If you go back to the original Genesis story of Adam and Eve, right, and they were naked and we’re not ashamed. And then all of a sudden a couple chapters in this thing called sin enters the race, right? There’s this fruit, weed, an apple, something like that. You know this many we think of mythical story, something. It’s a literal story. So it depends who you ask. But nonetheless, it’s an amazing story. But shame enters in, what’s the first thing they do? They cover up. But was that God’s intent? Was that God’s ideal? It wasn’t right that God didn’t want that to happen. He didn’t want that covering to take place. He made the fig leaves in the story in order to help them with their shame. But the question is, were they ever supposed to stay there in lieu? And I don’t think so. I don’t think the answer was and i think i think one of the greatest freedoms, or one of the greatest things for those who experience God’s love or God’s grace is to be able to feel that freedom and joy and ease you need to call it forgiveness, call it what you want, but being able to break free from shame based background. And that’s happening hugely today, there’s a whole movement out there known as the anti purity culture movement. Many of the ladies girls, women who listened to your podcast, probably at some point in their past, maybe were given a purity ring, maybe a dad comes along and gives a daughter a purity ring. And and there’s nothing wrong about a dad and a daughter talking about sex. That’s a great thing. Right? That’s a great thing to talk about is that you can come and talk to me about anything. That’s the super, where the problem comes is within the purity culture, the purity movement that said, here’s this ring, and if you ever blow it, right, if you ever have set your now damaged goods, your used goods, or does that that’s more shame heaped on that person. And now we know years later, decades later that that has done so much damage. a pastor, female pastor Nadia bolts, whoever did this hilarious movement last year, where she encouraged ladies to send in their purity rings if they still had them. And she got I don’t know how many dozens or hundreds of rings she got. But they melted down the gold and molded it into a golden vagina.


Mallory Gordon  37:09

That’s a beautiful statement.


Mitch (Pastor)  37:10

It is. And it’s a pastor that’s doing it that says, look, ladies, you were shamed in the past, but you don’t have to because vaginas are beautiful. Let’s make a golden one out of your purity ring. So you can turn your back and say I’m done with the damage that was done to me.


Cindy (Pastor)  37:25

It’s you’re broken. You’re not even pure enough to be a gift to your husband. Yeah, you do marry? Yeah, this person, you’re like broken goods. You’re not any


Mallory Gordon  37:34

you’re not as good as you should be. Yeah, it’s immediate devaluation. Yeah. Right. It’s an effort to make sure you stay that way. We before we started recording, I found it interesting. What does that do say somebody doesn’t get married till they’re 25? Or 30? Was that due to their ability to provide affection if they’ve never been able to explore their sexual


Cindy (Pastor)  37:56

side? Right, just any kind of touch? Those things are kind of taboo? Maybe? And we changed our views on this. Yeah. Yeah, we feel like you know, of course, you know, we were thinking we wanted our daughter to stay pure till marriage. Well, you know, that was when she was younger, you know, you kind of have those ideals. You want an ideal upbringing you for your child, and then you know, they don’t get married till later. And you’re like, well, that’s probably not the best route, because then you’re just stifling everything. And it’s all buried, your natural sexual feelings, those things are not uncommon. Those are natural rays are there for a reason, right? And they get buried too often.


Mickey Gordon  38:39

So use the word reason. And I think it stands to reason that it’s unreasonable to expect somebody to not have that sort of an interaction, right, especially our children. You know, we have conversations with our kids on the regular, our youngest is a teenager these days. And he’s doing exactly what teenage boys do regularly with ferocity on the regular. And the thing I tell him is, I expect it. And I’m not going to stop you. But I am going to ask you not to get your education from the internet. If you have a question. Come ask me about it. I may not like it. I may not like what you’re asking me about. But I’ll always be honest with you. And I’ve done that with all of my kids. But the kind of I’m going to tie all of this back that we’re talking about right now to the lifestyle because this is casual swinger after all, and we talk about shame, and what shame leads to shame leads to lies. Because I have to tell you, whatever makes me comfortable and less shameful in presenting myself to you, and when I present myself to you, I present myself to Mallory. It isn’t necessarily my true self if I feel shame, which means I’m lying to you which means my communication is broken. And anybody that listens to the show knows that the number one thing in the lifestyle is communication. I have to be able to Communicate with my wife to know what our boundaries are, I have to be able to communicate with you and your wife to know what your boundaries are and your comfort levels are and how not to break any of that trust that we built between us in the path of communication that we have. But if I feel shame, I lie. If I lie, the communication isn’t real. And if it isn’t real, our relationship is broken from the beginning. How do we fix that? How do you fix that spiritually? And how do we fix that personally, lifestyle or not? What’s the first step?


Mitch (Pastor)  40:32

First thing that comes to my mind is it’s about relationships. We were created for relationships, we were never created to be alone. You go back to the Bible, it even says it’s not good for, again, gender language here, but for men for the man to be alone. And so the woman gets created. And there’s this sense of the two needing each other. Something that’s like a marriage verse. I think it’s more relationship ORS, we need people. So I think one of the best places to come back to is Who can I find to talk to about it back to communication? How do I find this a safe person like,





Mitch (Pastor)  41:06

We float up to each other on the beach with you guys, we start talking, it’s easy to get deep, pretty fast. Yeah, when you’re in a place like this, and start talking and you just don’t do you know, it’s no like snorkeling, we go scuba diving in conversation down deep, really quick. That’s healing, if you find a safe place, and you’re able to share that with somebody that can be so healing, the shame gets dealt with and everything. Now, the caveat there is you got to know who’s safe and who’s not safe. Because you guys might have had this as well, we’ve had some bad experiences with trying to share parts of ourselves with someone thinking they were safe, and then they were not. And then they go tell somebody else. So one of the cautions is, yes, you need to talk you need to share with others, you need to talk deeply about what’s going on in your life. But make sure that’s a safe person. Before you you know, splinter guts out there.


Mickey Gordon  41:57

We can counter some of that, you know, our listeners know that we moved to Florida recently, in the last few years, and something changed for us. We stopped being ashamed of who we are. No, we’re not out. We don’t run around, you know, waving it in anybody’s face. But if for some reason somebody were to say, Oh, those guys are swingers. And yeah, that’s a you problem. If you have an issue with it, it’s not a me problem. I didn’t ask you to fuck me. Yeah, I didn’t. And I certainly didn’t ask you to fuck my wife. And by the way, she would never fuck you do so but if somebody has an issue with it, and wants to start judging somebody about it, our concern is actually our kids. Yeah, that somebody is going to give our kids a hard time because they’re not equipped to fight back the way we are mentally and personally and in linguistically, you know, we have the weapons that somebody would very much regret doing that to us. But they don’t. Yeah. And so spiritually, where do you go? I mean, because if you go to your church, you’re going to be told no, they have a book that they reference, they all do. Every every religion does. Where do you go? How do you have that conversation and say, how’s my relationship with God affected by my attraction to other people, right? Because


Mallory Gordon  43:05

the other side of that equation is if you go to the clinical side, psychology therapy, you know, it’s a much more clinical potential clinical version of the conversation and not as spiritual. So where’s that Merryman of the two?


Mitch (Pastor)  43:19

I think there’s a huge movement going on right now that we’re going to begin seeing more and more of that realizes that God is in everything. Whereas it used to be like if you don’t go to church, you can’t find God’s you do your God thing on a Sunday or whenever that if you believe that God created this beauty around us. For those that do and if you don’t, whatever, you know, your divine being is that you believe how we all got here, or you know, the God did the Big Bang thing started in, we still got this amazing creation. We don’t know. Nobody knows exactly


Mallory Gordon  43:56

what we’re here now.


Mitch (Pastor)  43:56

But we’re here now we’re surrounded by beauty. And if you can be in touch with that, so and whether that’s from you know, we feel when you go out in the sun. It’s amazing, right? It feels awesome to have the sun be down it when you’re in water that feels amazing. The elements themselves. So many would say that God is in everything. Not that God is everything. But God is in everything. And there’s a whole movement around that right now. There was a book that was written this last year called the universal Christ. Okay, now this is different. So it’s not like people would say this by Richard Rohr. And it’s an amazing book, where he, he’s a Franciscan. He’s a Franciscan monk as a wonderful organization called the Center for action and contemplation. And so he wrote a book called The Universal Christ and his assessment is, Christ is in everything. It’s an call, he calls it another name for every thing. So you don’t have to go into a church building to find Christ. You don’t have to Do whatever your religion might have told you you did that if you want to experience Christ, you can find that on a beach, you can find it in nature, you can find it in a group of people, you can find it in your community where the greatest need is. And I think there are many people, especially younger millennials, and such that are going that’s a religion I can get behind. That’s an understand because religion is from the Latin word really do. And it’s like really ligament, it’s meant to connect people back together, not tear them apart. And so much your religion has torn people apart, especially young people are looking, how can I be a part of something that matters? How can we put this back together and I can’t find a church, I don’t want to go to a church or the church did damage to me, or I don’t want to be told to believe that way. Whatever the case would be. There’s so many issues, the church in America is declining hugely today. And we know that, but that doesn’t mean spirituality is declining. People need to know how to find spirituality in the places in between. And I think we’re seeing a huge movement to see what does that look like to find Christ and everything, God in everything, and to be able to go that’s worship?


Mickey Gordon  46:13

I think this week anyway, God is in each pocket hedonism, because some woman was calling him repeatedly calling him he’s not gonna answer. He’s around here somewhere. It’s, it’s interesting that you say, though, that the gods all around us that God is in everything, right. And yet, the problem with religion is that it’s weaponized. The problem with everything is that when we weaponize it when I mean, capitalism is a wonderful thing until you weaponize it. Right. Kindness is a wonderful thing to you weaponize it into it, because there’s something in it for me. And I think religion has been weaponized by man. And it’s been bastardized, repeatedly and just reformulated for man’s own ends. And then when we talk about the lifestyle, it can be weaponized to share we sweet we meet couples, even here on this beach, where one of them is here, because their husband or wife drugged them here, and they’re really not having a good time. That’s an awful thing to see. That means there’s something beautiful like hedonism, in its name, the pursuit of pleasure is


Mallory Gordon  47:27

the walls up America, feel free to go out there and have the experience because it wasn’t on their terms. Yeah.


Mickey Gordon  47:35

And, you know, often, but it doesn’t happen often. But it we’ve seen it. I mean, we’ve been coming here a long time as well. And I think for us, and from a spiritual perspective, we definitely see people hiding their spirituality when they’re here. And very rarely do we see somebody openly maybe praying before dinner, because they feel like maybe they can’t, because that doesn’t exist here. Or they have been so now that shame works the other way, that they don’t feel like they can be who they are everywhere else. You know, we have lots of people we run into whether it’s at Notting in New Orleans, or one of our local clubs. You’re like, I gotta be up for church in the morning. And it’s like you’re a better person than I am. Because I’m going to be out two, three in the morning and I’m going to sleep Ville Hey, what are you what do you guys his feelings on spirituality? And as it affects the lifestyle? Do you think it’s becoming more prevalent, less prevalent? I mean, I know Shane is is definitely a big factor of it. Are people overcoming it? I know, the lifestyles becoming more prevalent. We’re seeing it more and more every day. There was just a special thing. Media. Yeah, mainstream media. Yeah. So do you think that at some point, those paths will cross more than they do today, and people will be comfortable with saying, you know, I believe in more I believe in a higher power. I believe that, you know, there’s something out there for me, and there’s joy in my life,


Mallory Gordon  48:53

right? And then I can be a sexual creature and lifestyle and so can like, be spiritual. Yeah. Yeah. Because I feel like people do. They can feel like they can only have one or the other.


Mickey Gordon  49:04

And his coaches, are you guys working toward that as What are you working toward? If not that?


Mitch (Pastor)  49:08

Yeah, great. Thank you. That’s, that’s the goal is to be able to find that place where all the parts come together, and they’re integrated in a way that you’ve dealt with some shame. You have some safe places to go and community and talk with people. And now you’re at a place where you’re able to search for, hey, how can I live this life to the fullest? And what does that look like? So I think the answer to your question is yes, the short answer is yes. The sad part is when people don’t have the resources, take the time or understand how do you bring those parts all together? How do you enjoy it in such a way that it isn’t just something I go away from my disconnected life? How do I bring it back to a place where I realize the spiritual touches everything. It’s what I’m here. It’s why I’m doing what I’m doing, no matter where I go, and it’s back at home. It’s every single day, it’s with family, it’s one I’m alone. And so when people are starting to understand that, I think that can be one of the most positive ways to live. Because when you cut spirituality out of your life, and granted, many people cut God out of their lives, become atheist, agnostic, whatever, choose that. There still spirituality, you cannot be, you are always spiritual. And so the goal, I think, is to look for ways to find that and like you said, not be ashamed of it, to be able to integrate it, and to bring it into the relationship as two people connect, as friends Connect, as people. I mean, you sense that when you even feel touch, when you give a hug at a place like this. There’s a hug. And then there’s a hug. Yeah. And you sense the spirituality and instead of a deep hug, right? I mean, you could do that if you put your hand on someone’s heart, we did the Tantra couples massage this week here, and one of your experiences


Cindy (Pastor)  50:59

was reading my best experience was the woman that was massaging me, she put my hand on her heart, and then my hand on my heart. And so we were I was able to feel our hearts beating together. And that was just a spiritual illness, a, a connection, a human connection to our bodies. But it was spiritual, too. It was a connection between our body and our spirit. And you had said to me before we came here, let’s try to have a, a, what was it a spiritual? I’m trying to have a spiritual experience of any relational experience, no, but you said, have a spiritual experience as a human, like, not just a human having a spiritual experience, let’s be spiritual, having a human experience, it can go both ways, I do believe yourself is more spiritual and more human. Like, we can be spiritual having a human experience, or we could be a human having a spiritual experience. So depending on where you are, and how you think about that, it values the human body. I love that that can be spiritual, but then our human bodies can then have a spiritual experience. So


Mickey Gordon  52:14

so that’s probably a little bit of a mindfuck. Don’t press rewind, because we’re gonna talk about that for a second. So we’re talking about duality here, we’re talking about that we can be both spiritual people, and just straight up animals at the same time, or different times, and animals can have spiritual experiences. But spiritual beings can have very animalistic experiences. And it doesn’t cloud the waters of either.


Mitch (Pastor)  52:44

Is that what version I think the better way to say that? Mickey is to think, how do I move from dualistic experience to a holistic experience? So it’s not either or? It’s both and, okay, so we naturally tend to, in our Western mind, separate those things into either or that’s dualistic. But to realize, no, we are created in integrated ways where everything touches each other. And that’s holistic. And when you can find that and live into that. That’s what yoga tries to teach us. They have yoga here on the beach every morning. That’s an awesome thing. That’s a spiritual experience. Okay, now someone gets an Eastern spiritual experience. Yeah, but that’s a spiritual experience. So some in the West aren’t as used to it, yoga is becoming more popular than ever has. Now we have Tantra, we just mentioned the Tantra. That’s another Eastern experience. That’s an amazing, holistic spiritual experience. So far on


Cindy (Pastor)  53:39

angelical ism has not tapped into no estate separate.


Mitch (Pastor)  53:43

And many are scared of that. Because again, of their church background, religious background, God, their view of God, it’s like a toxic God philosophy, though, because the view is, if I do something like that, God’s going to be angry at me pissed at me. I’m going to go to hell, etc, rather than to realize No, God created these things. And God wants you to move toward we were talking about this earlier, offline love, how do you move toward a place of love yoga helps you do that Tantra helps you do that. Most of the church world has not woken up to how to do that. So for the whole lifestyle audience, you’re definitely dabbling in things, relationship, touch feelings, love, sex, etc. Figure out what you want to call that. But when you can move that to a non dualistic understanding and move toward wholeness, you’ll sense a deeper connection than you ever had before. That’s


Mallory Gordon  54:38

absolutely, it’s very true. Yeah. We call coming to Hito. Sometimes going to church,


Mickey Gordon  54:43

for we do it all the time. People ask us, we’re going to go to church for the week we’re going to church. And it’s funny. A couple of things, I guess. Number one, I probably feel more at peace here than I do just about anywhere. The people the connections, we make the mind Yeah, I really enjoy making people happy. You guys know that from just spending any time around the you know, it’s, it drives her insane sometimes because I’m always on when we’re here. But something happened, you know, it’s you and I were talking earlier this week, and you said that you were being touched during your massage, and you just became emotional. And you know, all of a sudden you had tears. And that happens to me probably five times a week here. It’s why I always have sunglasses on because something or somebody, something happens in, dammit. There they are again, you know, and it’s, and it’s because the experience, right, and there was, since you’re an old Hito vet, like we are the mind, the body, the spirit, the soul. It was a tagline they used in the mid 80s here at the resort, and I’m really sad. They got away from it. Because they finally get described the experience of connecting with people here, the way that it happens. And it’s so unique. Yeah. And I know that there are other places where people connect around the world, don’t send me hate mail and go we do that a desire to. Okay, I get it. Right. But it’s different here. There’s a magic to it. Yeah. And a great example is we’re on our catamaran cruise yesterday, or if you guys happen to catch this, but the girls up front, they played the song came on and the girls broke out into a coordinated dance for me and lip synching lip synching to a song to me and I almost lost my shit. Like, and not because it will just ensure entertainment value, but they wanted to give something back to me. And I was just so overwhelmed that somebody that group of people cared that much about something we’ve done for them over the course of this week.


Mallory Gordon  56:42

I loved watching them celebrate you in that way. It was beautiful. Yeah.


Mickey Gordon  56:47

So anybody listening to the show that thinks this is just about sex, or that hedonism is about being naked, or just about sex, you are wrong. And I very seldom tell somebody, you are plain wrong, especially when we’re talking about spirituality, especially if we’re talking about religion, life, Oh, I can’t help it. Sometimes I’m wrong. And it’s usually when I’m telling her she’s wrong. But


Cindy (Pastor)  57:11

it was full of experiences. And so often during normal life, we get so busy, everything just stays in that in our head. And so it just mental, and we forget that experiences are what are things that keep us alive, things that we want, whether it’s spiritual experiences, or physical experiences, or emotion, emotional experiences, all of those things are important. And it’s a bad experience in life. Like people want to be happy and joyful, but they’re just, they just stay home. You know, the life and happiness happens through people and experiences. Not reading a book, how to do something. Yeah.


Mickey Gordon  57:48

How do you guys feed your souls? Is it Hirohito? Or do you go to church? I mean, what do you what do you do? Personally, as pastors as coaches? What do you do? Good question.


Mitch (Pastor)  57:59

We try to do that in a lot of different ways. Feel free to chime in here. We go to the beach a lot when we can to be in creation, the creation with our hiking, beach, mountains, those kinds of things really feel and be able to sense God in those things, right, God in everything, if God, one of my most spiritual experiences has been being in the midst of a snowstorm, because God was in that snowstorm, it was white, which helped me feel like the sense of grace, there was wind, which helped me feel the sense of the Spirit, the trees were blowing, which just felt like, you know, it was just amazing power in that there’s almost spiritual experiences I ever had. So getting in nature would be


Cindy (Pastor)  58:41

one value time together. I mean, that’s a large part of it. And we’re both learners. So we’re always just trying to learn new things. And that’s actually self care for us. Yeah, learning. Yeah, whatever. It could be.


Mitch (Pastor)  58:54

Another one I already mentioned. It was relationships, finding people we can really have really deep great talks with


Cindy (Pastor)  58:59

if you are too self with Yeah, not feel like we have to wear a mask. Yeah. People put on when they do go to church, and we do go to church on a regular basis, as well. Yeah. But it’s about the people is that meaning people helping others be true to themselves, and giving them that freedom? In a way the culture today the younger culture does a better job at that their tolerance. Tolerance is the word that they’ve used in that for that generation of accepting others for who they are. They actually do a better job at that. People.


Mallory Gordon  59:31

Yeah, I think they have a much better and a sense of community and supporting their tribe. When it comes safe day just natural. Yeah. And they judge,


Mitch (Pastor)  59:42

that’s part of it. One other one that comes to mind is dealing with our minds and the tendencies we have to have really unhealthy toxic thoughts that we think in our minds kind of can go there. So what does it mean to replace those toxic unhealthy thoughts with healthy thoughts, okay, and to be able to do that And not end up in negative places, rather than just to escape really do that. Another would be bodily even to be able to try to take care of our bodies with with as much health as possible. Good nutrition, good exercise, sleep tanks, sex, sex, sexual sex, a lot of different places sex, outdoors, outdoor sex. Yeah, but just the way the body in it again, we’re going back to understanding how do you care for yourself, you can’t do it just one way. And we’re talking about spirituality, people think well, that must have just mean going to church, or you must just mean reading a spiritual book. No, it means all of those things that are accessible around us to be able to care for yourself to care for your soul, people have different interpretations for what that means. My favorite definition is just the soul is kind of like the operating system of a computer. It just keeps everything running. And you want it to work. When you boot up your computer, you don’t want it to crash, your soul can crash. And so to be able to pay attention and to have self care, which is a good word malware to use for that is so important. And so


Cindy (Pastor)  1:01:11

we all have to realize we all start at the place that we are, and to not beat ourselves up for the place, wherever we need to grow in and become better at. Just know this is where I’m at. Because of my life circumstances from childhood possibly, I just need to start here and just know I’m going to start helping myself be better, be healthier. And whether it’s a massage, maybe some people don’t aren’t comfortable with a massage, the touch of that just start somewhere, choose something to help you become less shameful about your body. So I started with a threesome last night. Sorry.


Mickey Gordon  1:01:51

I’m like the journey of 1000 miles starts with a single step or two people eating your pussy, but whatever. So, you know, it’s funny. We’ve talked about a lot of themes here today, we talked about, about shame. And we talked about spirituality, we talked about kind of integrating that into your life. And there are people that are in churches out there that are maybe, you know, there’s a bake sale on Sunday, and you had a gangbang on Saturday night, then there’s instead of Now I’m not saying that you should go into that bake sale, and but guess what I did? Okay, because there’s also decorum right and in propriety. And hey, if that’s not your bag, I’m not going to go in and wave that in your face and say that, you know, I was number three in a train last night. You know, that’s, that’s not what we’re saying. What we’re saying is, who you are is okay, who you are as acceptable. And it’s not just acceptable to us, because we’re here at hedonism with beautiful people having a wonderful time. It’s acceptable to God, it’s acceptable to whom it’s acceptable to you, who you are in the mirror is good. Right? And if it’s not good with you, and it’s not good with who you want to be, you can change it by changing one thing. Right? Take one step in make a move. Yeah. And then go on that direction. Right. And, yeah, the time with you guys. I hope it helps somebody. I hope this helps somebody make sure to


Mitch (Pastor)  1:03:11

Yeah, that wants to move toward love, move toward goodness, understand that God has an ending love and goodness available to you. And it’s all around us dive into that.


Mickey Gordon  1:03:23

Yeah, like I said, welcome to the mind book. I By the way, my favorite is snowfall. And not just the snow, but the silence of snowfall. That it’s that there’s it’s the only silence like it in the world, that I’ve been in some incredibly silent environments, including the sensory deprivation chamber, that kind of silence your thoughts will drive you crazy. But snowfall, you hear every single flake hit the ground, but it does it silently. It’s like, This is so weird, but it’s beautiful. And having grown up in the north, and now in the south. I don’t I miss it, but I don’t write Not in the least. Ladies and gentlemen, this has been a really special experience for us to be able to spend this time not only one of our favorite places in the world, but two of our favorite people we’ve ever interviewed. Because this has really been a very warm experience for us and different in by the way, our tantric massage is Saturday morning. Oh nice to get some hot check ladies to rub their naked so for me, I’m looking forward to feeling all weepy and spiritual. But for now, hot check naked lady. Sounds like a lot of fun. So we’re gonna get in our show notes. And we’re gonna put in some contact information. If you have questions, folks, for Michonne. Cindy, send them to us. In the meantime, if you can’t, and we’ll get in touch with them for you. If you have I mean, you know, you’re probably going to have questions. And I don’t think that we answer questions definitively. That’s not how this works. You have to answer it but we can certainly put you with people help guide you. Now do you want to tell everybody how they can find So we can let these sit


Mallory Gordon  1:05:01

up go. Sure you we are a casual swinger everywhere. That’s podcast at casual If you want to reach out and ask questions, it’s casual swinger on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube. SLS Cassidy, SBC, SLS and quiver.


Mickey Gordon  1:05:17

It’s always a mystery to me how she remembers all the damn different places we are. Ladies and gentlemen, you’ve been listening to casual swinger.



Hi, I’m Venus from the Venus cuckold just podcast and I have a special message for all of the single ladies listening. What if you could have a loving, committed partner who wants to stay totally faithful to you, but who would love to see you have incredible experiences with others? It sounds too good to be true, right? It is true. You really can have it all and be loved, celebrated and even put on a pedestal. Learn more at Venus